Nomi's clearly outclassed as a swordsman here (nor will her Wall of Light work), and sufficient abuse of Force power from Kyp would absolutely wipe out Vodo. Exar could demolish several members of the NJO team himself with his artifacts, but it's not exactly something he would do under standard morals.
Exar and Ulic are better than any duelists on team 2 (sans Jaina who is their equal), but Nomi is out of her depth and I'd say Corran could probably beat Vodo in a good fight. Nomi is a weak link
__________________ "Happiness is a lie. Life is horror. The light is always dying all across the universe. The last star will flicker out someday, when it does, all that remains is shadow. And I will be its king!"'-Amahl Farouk
Nomi's battle meditation and combative telepathy is slightly underrated here. We are talking about the same woman who tore Aleema Keto's mind apart while she was in her meditation sphere, yes? Nomi providing battle meditation on a smaller scale, but in a more directed fashion would hamper the NJO team pretty profusely.
__________________ “The galaxy must experience the pain of death and the rapture of rebirth as I have. I will bring chaos. It is time for war.”
That's if she could survive a direct encounter with the NJO duelists, and Jaina also knows battle meld which she's used quite effectively herself
__________________ "Happiness is a lie. Life is horror. The light is always dying all across the universe. The last star will flicker out someday, when it does, all that remains is shadow. And I will be its king!"'-Amahl Farouk
She has Exar Kun, Ulic and Vodo covering her while she gets the first assault off with telepathy, or alternatively knocks the flow of battle in her favour with battle meditation. I'd say in this scenario the NJO team is the one in trouble initially.
Hell, Nomi could arguably reduce this to a 4v3 off the bat by choosing someone to assault with her full mental strength. She overpowered Aleema in her most powerful incarnation, whose mental strength is sufficient to form illusions that make capital ship fleets look tiny in comparison. Why couldn't she do it to, say, Corran or Saba?
__________________ “The galaxy must experience the pain of death and the rapture of rebirth as I have. I will bring chaos. It is time for war.”
Corran's mental feats are pretty high, and under the pressure of another duelist, I highly doubt Nomi would manage to Battle Meditation/TP offensively. I mean, this is a morals on duel, so Nomi just using those powers off the bat in of itself is hardly assured, let alone doing so under such unrelenting pressure in a duel.
She could probably break through Saba's mental defenses, but at the same time, she wouldn't survive a physical attack from Saba either.
That's also assuming she isn't destroyed by Kyp's Force powers, as well. I'd say the same for Exar except he doesn't have a tendency to use Force powers in a duel. It's hardly likely that Kyp would just single her out with telekinesis and destroy her, but if he sees what's happening to Saba, then it's certainly a possibility.
I'm not seeing why we're all so eager to talk about why Nomi will be under pressure in a duel when the other team need to actually reach her first. Nomi would get her telepathic assault off first - unless the default setting on this board is to spawn characters within 5 feet of each other - and she does have three others to cover her while she does so. Her morals also denote using mental assaults in combat; it's her forte. She's been able to trick numerous adversaries into fighting each other on a few occasions before they could reach her in melee range.
Saba needs to close the distance. Nomi doesn't. Advantage - Nomi.
If Kyp began using his Force powers to destroy Nomi I have no doubt that Ulic - who cares deeply for Nomi - would respond in kind with his amulet, as well as Exar, whose MO is usually to do so when his opponent brings the Force into the equation. Can't say how it'd all go down for certain, but Force-wise, I favour the TotJ team between Nomi's battle meditation/telepathy, Exar's extremely potent sorcery, and his and Ulic's extremely powerful blasts. Or, the TotJ team could just win in lightsaber combat with Nomi running BM.
__________________ “The galaxy must experience the pain of death and the rapture of rebirth as I have. I will bring chaos. It is time for war.”
I don't know what the default distance is here, but it's generally 5-10m. And Nomi's the slowest here from what I know of her speed feats.
She has the advantage provided that the distance is sufficient for her to do so, but who says she'll mentally attack Saba with the Force specifically?
I meant morals in a lightsaber-based duel, but then, she hasn't exactly had those sorts of fights, so it is hard to judge.
Ulic has never, ever used anything like that in a duel, and assuming Jaina is his opponent, I doubt he would have room to do so. Exar might, but Kyp's still more powerful than him.
And then there's still Corran pulling a Halcyon if he falls, Battle Meld, Shatterpoint, Alter Environment, etc. so TotJ is hardly the only team with tricks up their sleeve. I also doubt TotJ has the superior Force power - nothing implies Ulic is more powerful than Jaina (or by any noticeable margin, at least), while Kyp is more powerful than Exar and Vodo just doesn't hold up in Force power - even Saba beats him in that. Nomi and Corran have different power sets, so it's hard to call, but in the instance in which you described with Nomi being taken out, even if Ulic and Exar let loose with their Force power, I would still doubt that they are the (noticeably) more powerful team.
Last edited by SunRazer on May 8th, 2015 at 07:52 AM
5-10 meters is adequate space for Nomi to use her brain to think. She doesn't have a charge up time.
I find it puzzling that I'm not allowed to assume it's possible for Nomi to target one person on the other team with telepathy (I didn't necessarily say Saba), but in the same post you assume Ulic's opponent will be Jaina? The broad point I'm making here is that Nomi's telepathy is at least enough to give her team an advantage that can't be adequately dealt with, whether that means battle meditation, her targeting one person with telepathy, etc, etc.
However, he is prone to using the Force when his emotions are brought into the equation, as we've seen several times. If we go with your scenario where Kyp annihilates Nomi, then the other team can expect a lethal amulet blast in return.
I'm not sure what you meant by this.
Edit:
How exactly is Battle Meld, Shatterpoint or etc more useful than someone whose telepathy/battle meditation can destroy extremely powerful sorcerers while they're in a meditation chamber, and change the tide of battles containing thousands of soldiers?
There's certainly plenty of "implication" that he's more powerful than her; it's implied he's second only to Kun as far as "Dark Lords of the Sith" are concerned, which back then simply meant all of the Ancient Sith who held that title. It's acknowledged by Exar and objective sources that Ulic's power was a rival for Exar's once they both got their hands on an amulet - Exar being more powerful than Jaina as I'm sure we agree.
Feats-wise? There's the fact Ulic was regarded as the most powerful Jedi prior to him joining the Krath, which includes powerful Jedi like Odan-Urr (who can Force Sever Sith as well as telepathically address thousands of Jedi simultaneously as well as link their minds), Thon (who was able to cast a Wall of Light powerful enough to contain the dark side energies encompassing all of Ambria to just a lake, albeit over time, but still) and Tott Doneeta (who was able to temporarily hold back a Ryloth heat storm which was quite literally destroying an entire town). There's also the fact he shrugged off Ommin's sorcery despite already being pre-prime and in a dark-side rich environment. Or him maintaining a barrier which deflected laser cannon blasts powerful enough to damage Naga Sadow's capital ship.
So, yeah. Ulic is probably more powerful than Jaina in a raw sense, and his raw outbursts of power tend to be pretty potent when he's prompted to use them.
He's more powerful in a raw sense, but Exar beats him out combatively in terms of offensive and defensive powers.
Dude, if Exar and Ulic let loose their Force power the other team would get annihilated. We're talking about two guys using amulets that focus, concentrate, and amplify their already impressive raw power into blasts of energy, and one whose sorcery is too much for anyone on the other team to handle. If Kyp wipes out Nomi with the Force, then it goes from being a 3v3 to a TotJ victory pretty quickly.
__________________ “The galaxy must experience the pain of death and the rapture of rebirth as I have. I will bring chaos. It is time for war.”
1. Sure, but it's not as if dropping her telepathically would be easy.
2. Jaina's just an example. And her advantage isn't "inadequately dealt with" at all. She's completely vulnerable in that state, and if we had ten rounds, it's not as if she'd just abandon her saber immediately to retire into telepathic assaults every time, and probably not even for a majority. Battle Meditation is at least plausible, but it's not insurmountable by any means. And as I said, the NJO team have their own share of abilities they can use.
3. His loss of control involved a telekinetic burst, if that's what you're referring to, and that would probably only be devastating to Saba/Corran.
4. I'm referring to him replicating his grandfather's showing by absorbing a lightsaber blade and unleashing TK/TP/Illusion of a vast scale in death.
1. ..easier than getting past Exar Kun's saberstaff.
2. I disagree, her advantage isn't adequately dealt with. The other team have no telepathic defence to prevent Nomi from doing to them what she did to Aleema, someone who specializes in the field of telepathy. And alternatively she can weaken all of them in one go with battle meditation, which is going to really suck for them. I'll take three Maul-tier duelists who are amplified over the weakened NJO team in this thread any day of the week, seeing as Jaina is the only one who can match any of them on neutral terms. Now she's weakened and they're amped, and her only support are three duelists who are already substantially weaker on regular terms, never mind Battle Med terms.
I just don't see the argument for Nomi's BM being prevented.
3. There's that and the time he nearly killed Nomi and co. with his amulet. And the time he blew apart his torture restraints. Not seeing why Ulic unleashing his Force power wouldn't be devastating to anyone who fails to raise a defence to it.
4. Interesting. So Corran's plan is to absorb his own lightsaber blade, die, and then oneshot the other team with telepathy? Not seeing it.
__________________ “The galaxy must experience the pain of death and the rapture of rebirth as I have. I will bring chaos. It is time for war.”
1. I was talking about Force power. And it's not as if the saberstaff is more unorthodox than a form which isn't even one of the Jedi's traditional ones (Jaina), or Trakta (Corran).
2. Well for one, telepathic defense isn't solely based on sheer TP ability, but also one's willpower, so I'm confident it's not easy for her to break Saba, who is the weakest of the four mentally and in the Force as a whole. I mean, even if it succeeded, it would take time, and in that time, both Nomi and Saba would be out of this fight, which still leaves a 3 v 3. Battle Meditation still makes more sense to me. I mean, her display against Aleema seemed to be initiated because Aleema was exercising her own mental powers. Without the Jedi exercising their own mental strength, there's absolutely no incentive for her to use her mental powers off the bat.
That, and as I said, you're speaking of it as if she certainly will just abandon her saber and retire to a corner of the field to unleash these mental assaults. That's just not happening every time, lol. If Kyp makes use of Alter Environment, the completely vulnerable Nomi is getting eliminated, and I'd say a combination of more lightning strikes and the remaining NJO members' attacks would keep Vodo, Ulic and Exar from stopping Nomi's demise.
They're all Maul-tier duelists, just on a lower scale. And they're not substantially less skilled by any means, considering that Qui-Gon, who likely isn't even in the same tier as Maul, gave him trouble - he's also not as good as the NJO team. Also, Vodo can be dropped eventually in sabers or quickly in Force as well. You're hugely underrating not only the NJO team, but also the potency of numbers, since it's still a 4 v 3 with the Battle Meditation, and Vodo can still be demolished Force-wise. And by all means, an additional member is still plenty, even if they're not on the level of an amped TotJ member. That being said, they can coordinate themselves with Battle Meld, detect faults with Shatterpoint, etc.
3. Maybe because they can raise a defense against it? I'm talking about Jaina and Kyp.
4. lol, no. I meant if he gets fatally stabbed, he could pull a Halcyon and absorb that saber and then use that power to kill one other person or eliminate them for some time.
Last edited by SunRazer on May 8th, 2015 at 10:11 AM
Sounds like a trolling statement to me, but I'll bite for now:
"One night, Skywalker took all the students down to a hot spring underneath the Great Temple. There, they slipped into the water and contemplated the cosmos meditatively. Skywalker guided them on a Force-vision of the galaxy, during which Horn felt Mirax, but he was unable to find her precise location. The meditation was interrupted by the sensation of danger as hot gases began bubbling up from the bottom of the pool, threatening to roast the students alive. Horn tapped into the Force to protect himself and Tionne, who was floundering near the edge of the pool. He absorbed the heat and converted it to energy, easily using telekinesis to lift Tionne to safety."
I couldn't find the exact quote, but basically he absorbed energy that could have killed all of the students at the jedi academy, and not even Luke could have stopped it. Exar is going to blast Corran at some point, only to be incredibly surprised to have the energy returned to him or one of his allies.
__________________ "You must begin by gaining power over yourself; then another; then a group, an order, a world, a species, a group of species... finally, the galaxy itself."
- Darth Plagueis
"She may be small but she packs a punch and when shes in this mood...she goes for my danglers" - Oghren, Dragon Age
1. I know you were. Nomi dropping Saba with TP is easier than Saba clearing whatever starting distance there is and then getting through Ulic, Exar and/or Vodo in order to get to Nomi. Waiting for a counter this.
2. I'd say Nomi has greater willpower than Saba. Aleema's illusions were not only potent enough to fool every Jedi and soldier barring Nomi herself (including Ulic), but she was also capable of projecting them down onto a planet from orbit with enough precision to turn weapons into snakes, among other things (in their minds anyway). And yet in a battle of sheer mental strength, while Aleema was in her meditation chamber, Nomi tore her mind apart. Not trying to knock the other team, but based on you and everyone else's analysis in this thread, Nomi essentially becomes useless, which is really just choosing to be willingly ignorant of her abilities.
Dude, Nomi's MO isn't to go into lightsaber combat against prominent duelists. Her main, true strength is telepathy and battle meditation, always has been. She's never been in a situation such as this where she's put against another main character, but it's honestly just ridiculous that we assume Nomi won't fall back on her main strength as a combatant a majority of the time. When we saw her escaping from the Krath she opted to kill guards by using battle meditation on small scale, causing them to fight amongst themselves. When she was on Ambria, she saved her daughter by causing the beasts in the lake to attack each other. Now, I'm not saying she'll do that to the other team, but whether she attacks someone directly, or weakens them overall while strengthening her team, it's going to have a profound impact on the battle. It's up to you if you want to acknowledge that or not.
So what if Qui-Gon gave Maul a good fight? Good for Qui-Gon. And yes, yes, Vodo can be dropped by the Force. You're just choosing not to then acknowledge what happens when Exar and Ulic choose to react to that. Remember? Colossal Force power channelled into sheer energy? Sorcery?
Wait, so let me get this straight. I'm underrating the NJO team tremendously, yet you're the one dancing around the point that nobody is going to reach Nomi before she lets off her telepathy for what, four posts now? And yet a battle meditation amped iteration of the TotJ team isn't going to be able to cover the back of Nomi from the NJO team which will be substantially weakened? This isn't even worth replying to. Until you can show me the other team overcoming the kind of mental strength that is usually reserved for affecting the minds of thousands of beings - to the point they can get through Exar, Ulic and Vodo who will be taking out the likes of Saba and Kyp in sabers preeetty quickly given the BM - you don't get to whine about me underrating and ignoring points.
3. I'm loving the elaboration you've gone into. You've also not once made an attempt to counter Exar's sorcery. Concession accepted.
4. Got a quote for both this and Corran's inclination to use such a tactic?
You'd do well not to butt into debates just to call people trolls. It looks rather... unprofessional on your part.
Dude, your interpretation of the quote you've post above is reaching tremendously. The text nowhere states that Luke or anyone else is incapable of escaping from the gasses or holding them back, only that the gasses were threatening. I can threaten Brock Lesnar, and one of his bodyguards can knock me out, but that doesn't mean Brock was soiling himself over it.
More to the point, all Horn did there, in that specific quote, was protect himself and Tionne. If you can show me a quote for Corran absorbing the entire pool, as well as how this correlates to Corran eating a lightsaber blade and then using that energy to oneshot any member of the other team, I'll concede.
__________________ “The galaxy must experience the pain of death and the rapture of rebirth as I have. I will bring chaos. It is time for war.”
May 6th, 2015 12:21 AM
