Who has Scourge actually beaten in a duel? In the Revan novel he wasn't very impressive, and the arguments for him improving are basically him killing tons of fodder. Saba tore open an Abeloth avatar.
For the force she was able to manipulate Sekotan airships alongside Jacen, destroy a Durasteel door/gate structure on Upkezar, among other feats. I'm good with Saba
__________________ "Happiness is a lie. Life is horror. The light is always dying all across the universe. The last star will flicker out someday, when it does, all that remains is shadow. And I will be its king!"'-Amahl Farouk
Who has he actually beaten that compares to her mauling that Abeloth avatar?
__________________ "Happiness is a lie. Life is horror. The light is always dying all across the universe. The last star will flicker out someday, when it does, all that remains is shadow. And I will be its king!"'-Amahl Farouk
I'm not seeing Scourge taking anything solidly. Saba boasts monstrous physical attributes, and in terms of strength, probably outclasses Scourge. She seems faster as well, and Scourge probably only matches her in durability because he can't feel anything (which I assume would include pain). Otherwise, she's also more durable. She could also be somewhat more skilled, if anything.
I don't see why Consume Essence would matter here (he's not fighting a Sith), and Shatterpoint can be wildly unreliable in combat (it doesn't always surface, in fact it rarely does).
As for skill, Caedus considered Saba a challenge, which is probably a bit above Scourge. Either way, there's no way Scourge wins solidly.
"You have a special gift. You do not just feed on the raw emotions of your foe; you gorge yourself on them. You feast on their primal fear. It amplifies your hate and anger. It fuels the power of the Force. It transforms you into an instrument of death and destruction." (Darth Nyriss)
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"The greater your opponent's connection to the Force, the stronger you become." (Darth Nyriss)
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Scourge's savage and sudden assault, and the bloody carnage he left in his wake, sent them into a panic. He fed on their primal fears. Some he killed, others he left mortally wounded and writhing on the floor, their lives enduring for thirty or forty agonizing seconds while their high-pitched cries of pain fueled his bloodlust. Scourge drank in their terror and confusion, and felt the growing power of the dark side. (Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan)
It is not as unreliable as you make it sound to be. Satele Shan and Mace Windu immensely benefited from this talent in dire or difficult situations.
Darth Caedus considered Kyle Katarn a challenge too. It is logical for Darth Caedus to perceive (any) powerful or skilled opponent as a challenge or threat. I am sure that Emperor's Wrath history would impress him way more then Kyle Katarn and Saba Sebatyne. It is (not) norm for an individual to have a kill-count of Jedi and Sith exceeding 1000 in galactic history.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Sep 29th, 2015 at 05:52 AM
1. Right, but Saba isn't afraid of fighting Scourge, lol. She just has pure determination. You used an example of Scourge feeding on a Sith's emotions, because Sith use such emotions to fuel their fighting.
However, when Scourge encountered a Jedi in Meetra Surik, he noted that she "kept her emotions at arm's length", so I doubt his Consume Essence would be particularly notable here.
"Instead of feeding off her anger and hate, it was as if she kept her emotions at arm’s length so the Force could flow through her unhindered."
-- The Old Republic: Revan
2. Please show me them using their Shatterpoint in lightsaber duels on a basis regular enough for me to comfortably say that it'll matter here. All I can recall is Mace using Shatterpoint against Palpatine in the RotS novel, but it was confirmed to be a false Shatterpoint to begin with.
3. A threat and a challenge isn't the same. All Caedus said is that Kyle Katarn was a potential threat to him - he outright said Saba would be difficult for him to defeat. His analysis in that excerpt was pretty much entirely accurate anyway, so I don't exactly doubt him.
Quantity is irrelevant. It's the quality of your opponents which matters. Just for the sake of proving the point, even if Scourge killed a billion farmers over the course of millennia, it wouldn't matter.
1. Jedi also have emotions. Some are very good at concealing or controlling their emotions but not everybody.
2. I have not delved much into this subject but I am aware of the fact that Shatterpoint comes in handy in many situations. It is also useful for figuring-out tactical flaws in moves of an opponent in a duel.
He possesses an uncanny ability to analyze those around him to discover their weaknesses, and use that knowledge to his advantage. (Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Holonet)
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What do you mean by False Shatterpoint?
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3. This makes no sense. If somebody is powerful and/or skilled, and may stand in my way; it is logical for me to perceive him as a threat.
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Kyle Katarn was a legit threat:
Katarn, though, was a threat. (Taken from Star Wars: Legacy of the Force: Fury)
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Darth Caedus's perception of Saba Sebaytne is not a concrete proof of her abilities. Mace Windu held his colleagues Saesee Tiin, Agen Kolar and Kit Fisto in high esteem, perceived them as among the greatest warrior of the Jedi Order. In an actual fight with a competent Sith Lord however; Tiin, Kolar and Fisto dropped like flies.
The maximum you can argue is that Sebaytne is powerful and may prove to be a challenging opponent to Emperor's Wrath.
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Yes, quality is important. Jedi and Sith are quality individuals by default. And Emperor's Wrath was sent after most dangerous ones. Nobody is focusing on farmers.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Sep 29th, 2015 at 06:42 AM
2. The Shatterpoint that Mace thought he sensed turned out to be false.
3. Except Kit, Agen and Saesee have proven themselves, both with accolades and feats. So that's a pretty bad example, and Sidious isn't just a "competent Sith Lord", lmfao. Scourge would also be blitzed by Palpatine.
We can only make assumptions about this matter. Logically, this boils down to mindset of Saba Sebatyne. However, Emperor's Wrath may use Dun Moch to influence her emotions.
Mace Windu managed to land a blow at Darth Sidious and cornered him.
They don't live-up to their hype, IMO.
I seriously doubt that Emperor's Wrath can be blitzed. Hero of Tython (a Jedi fast enough to blitz two Sith assassins simultaneously) couldn't blitz him.
1. I don't recall Scourge doing that, and it probably won't work.
2. Right, and he later admits in the novel himself that the fear he sensed from Palpatine wasn't coming from Palpatine at all. It was a ploy. And the widely-supported stance on Palpatine deliberately losing in the fight is heavily implied in the novel, where he's aware of the Jedi coming for him long before they arrive and where he stalemated even the amped Mace Windu (who ended up winning by virtue of that Shatterpoint which turned out to be false).
3. Based on what? Agen has stomped Quinlan Vos within a page, Saesee has sparred evenly with Mace Windu for two pages, and Kit Fisto has handily destroyed a pair of Magnaguards (in the Dark Lord Trilogy, a single one of them can challenge Obi-Wan, and they're given lavish descriptions of their rather formidable abilities, as opposed to other sources where they're mostly high-class fodder). The likes of Shaak Ti and Obi-Wan have also deferred to them as some of the best in the Order's history.
Sidious has moved faster than Maul/Anakin can see, both of whom are immensely fast (faster than the Hero at that point in time).
His vast experience would logically encompass Dun Moch. He taunted Hero of Tython at the start of their confrontation.
Shatterpoint was working; Darth Sidious was cornered and Anakin Skywalker arrived at the right moment. Unfortunately, Skywalker turned on Windu. But this is not a failure of Shatterpoint, this is failure of Foresight on part of Windu. It shall also be kept in mind that the Jedi Foresight abilities diminished under the shadow of imbalance in the Force.
If Windu had foreseen Skywalker's betrayal, I am sure that he could manage to escape from the setting.
You need to look deeper; Quinlan Vos returned the favor soon after and escaped from his clutches.
I don't take sparring contests as indicative of true skill of an individual. A sparring contest is a learning process, nothing more.
You are assuming that all Magnaguard units work flawlessly 24/7. They are machines, and machines can falter at times.
Force-users rely on their precognitive abilities and sheer force of will to contend with overwhelming odds.
FYI, one of the opponents of Darth Vader felt that he (i.e. Darth Vader) was faster then any Jedi he has known but was able to contend with the Sith Lord nonetheless. Similarly, Darth Bane was able to contend with Lord Kas'im on the basis of his sheer force of will and reliance on his precognitive potential.
That is speculation.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Sep 29th, 2015 at 07:36 AM
Sep 29th, 2015 01:10 AM
