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__________________ "Happiness is a lie. Life is horror. The light is always dying all across the universe. The last star will flicker out someday, when it does, all that remains is shadow. And I will be its king!"'-Amahl Farouk
Except you're coming to the conclusion that Palpatine would annihilate them based on feats. Based on feats, they're insects to Novel Vitiate as well. Revan himself based on his past feats is easily Vader tier, (like slaughtering through the SF and defeating Malak long before recovering half his knowledge of the force, easily reflecting Nyriss's lightning that could instantaneously ash her even when putting up a barrier, etc) and he was no match for Vitiate.
__________________ ”You presume limits to my power. There are none.”
Yeah but that's not what actually happened. What actually happened was that the trio went face to face with Vitiate, Meetra would've killed him were she a little more ruthless with her throwing motion, and ultimately Scourge concludes that the Emperor would probably win, but it was hardly certain.
Those three would have been crushed by Palpatine.
I guess that doesn't guarantee that they'd lose to Vader, but no u.
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When did I say something happened? Based on their respective feats, Meetra and Scourge are literally insects compared to Sheev and Novel Vitiate. That they're considered a threat to Vitiate, (alongside focking Revan, who Meetra shares an immense force bond with) doesn't preclude being close to Sidious, even at this point.
No, they really wouldn't. Revan is a Vader class force user, (as I explained in the aforementioned post) and Vitiate oneshotted him once he brought his full power to bear. Not sure how Vader has a shot.
Vitiate breaks his mind with TP.
__________________ ”You presume limits to my power. There are none.”
How are they insects compared to novel Vitiate? Literally the most impressive thing novel Vitiate had done to that point without prep was killing his no-name sith father.
Revan Reborn hadn't really done anything to put him on Vader's level.
Which took time, and a nexus. Had the room been smaller, or Revan started running towards him a little sooner, or the others not lagged his entrance, Vitiate might not have gotten the time.
He oneshotted Revan. And Revan is so far above Meetra and Scourge that it's not even worth discussing.
Given that you like to powerscale, and I know you do, Revan defeated SF Malak, (who, contrary to popular belief, was extremely powerful,) far before reaching his prime. Also, easily blocking Nyriss's lightning storm is Vader level tbh.
There really isnt any room for debate. Revan himself states twice that he can't stand up to The Emperor. No mention of the nexus being a relevant factor in that evaluation. Revan is a Vader level force user, and simply isn't up to snuff with Vitiate. And in a force only matchup, Vitiate will definitely have time to unleash his greatest power.
You mean the person who stated an immensely weakened Vitiate would dominate his will 300 years later?
__________________ ”You presume limits to my power. There are none.”
Last edited by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ on Apr 11th, 2016 at 05:18 AM
Revan still thought they would help against Vitiate, which they did. They would be insects next to Palpatine, given that Sidious could one-shot the B-team and ragdoll Maul + Savage.
SF Malak hasn't really done anything. Nyriss's lightning is impressive but I think you're overrating it - turning people to ash is kind of low on the totem pole compared to what the likes of Vader have done (.ie composite Vader has brought down AT-ATs and TK'd fleeing starfighters from kilometer ranges).
I'm not saying that Revan > Vitiate, I'm just pointing out that the fight was a lot closer than you're letting on. He knocked Vitiate on his ass and only really lost because the room was big. Vader has better speed feats than Revan and could've TK'd Vitiate to him when he got knocked on his ass.
It doesn't have to be made explicit to factor into the evaluation - Revan's prior experience with Vitiate was on a nexus, now he's facing him on a nexus - the nexus is inextricably linked to his assessment.
But there's no nexus here. Even the dark energies of Vjun, which IIRC isn't as strong as Dromund, made Dooku a threat to Yoda. That's a pretty big leap in power.
Vader isn't beating him in a Force battle, not with his life support system. But he has a shot at forcing a melee in the all-out.
How is Vitiate (as of Revan) overrated? He is really powerful at that time.
He killed 9 members of the Dark Council some hours before his confrontation with Revan. When the latter found out about this, he found it difficult to digest for a while. However, Revan had to try...
Novel also reveals that Vitiate was more likely to defeat Revan and his allies then the other way round.
Vitiate had been growing in power throughout his span of existence up to the point of SWTOR original stories.
When Revan came, Vitiate was 1000 years old. Vitiate was extremely powerful during this time; literally described as almost godlike avatar of the Dark Side during this time in another source.
Do you have evidence to support your assumptions?
Vitiate doesn't needs any kind of preparation to defeat some opponents in combat situations; this was just Revan's point-of-view to justify his failures.
Moreover, Vitiate's confrontation with 9 members of the Dark Council have not been documented either. Lord Scourge disclosed this news to Revan, hinting that Vitiate killed them all.
Revan isn't far below Palpatine.
Right. Your jokes are not even funny.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Apr 11th, 2016 at 06:14 AM
This is...literally what I just called you out for doing. Do you even understand what you were quoting?
I don't need to provide evidence for a negative - .ie, that his mysterious blue flash is conveniently never used in a non-prepped combative scenario, or ever again for that matter.
Right, because everyone remembers that time when Revan enslaved an entire population to his will, mused about collapsing a multi-kilometer fortress (the imperial palace) with his mind, took down three elite Jedi masters in 8 seconds, Force choked Dooku from across the galaxy, and Force lightning'd Yoda. Revan at this point has defeated Darth Malak and killed Nyriss.
You're just mad that Vitiate was threatened by Revan and two fodder, while Palpatine clowned the B-team in three seconds and, according to the novelization, would have dispatched Windu shortly after had it not been for vaapad.
You are confusing this confrontation with another.
Vitiate is known to have purged two rebellious Dark Councils during his tenure as the Emperor of the ancient Sith Empire. One such event took place during the era of Darth Lokess and another such event took place during the era of Revan.
It seems like you have not done your homework.
Which population had Palpatine enslaved to his will? Byss? They were already his devoted followers.
Also, musing now implies credibility? Count Dooku, at some point, felt that he had become more powerful then Yoda.
Collapsing a structure of that size would definitely take more then a mere thought.
--
Revan had become the most powerful Jedi in galactic history and defeated countless opponents in combat situations including Mandalore the Ultimate (the strongest Mandalore of the era), Yusanis (greatest Echani warrior), Calo Nord (most feared Bounty Hunter), Darth Bandon, the duo of Yuthura Ban and powerful Uthar Wynn, Bastilla Shan (fallen), Darth Malak and Darth Nyriss.
On the Star Forge, Revan came across dozens of opponents at a time and still managed to cut a swath through the defenses of the enormous factory. This is one of the greatest consistently combat-focused accomplishments in history.
I am sure that Revan was capable of immense destruction with his powers. However, this was not his way. In the novel, we find Revan being very calculative in his moves.
Revan would threaten anyone.
Two fodder? Since when were Lord Scourge and Meetra Surik fodder?
Palpatine managed to blitz 3 Jedi Masters using a Lightsaber. How is cutting down someone with a Lightsaber comparable to defeating the same individual with Force powers?
Palpatine didn't overwhelm that Strike Team with his Force powers. You don't have a point.
No, you were responding to the part of my quote where I called you out on wanking over fluffy adjectives to the point of sounding like a walking parody - and you responded by wanking to more meaningless adjectives. It's like you don't register things that people make as arguments.
They were both one-off mysterious events that are never replicated whenever Vitiate is not prepared or he's facing characters with feats.
If you actually think Vitiate could pull this against Vader or Palpatine, when didn't he use it to insta-kill Scourge and Meetra?
That doesn't change the fact that he enslaved and drew energy from them, .ie, a far greater feat than anything Revan's done.
There's no reason to believe that Sidious is lying to himself, when was already in the process of creating Force storms.
To Vitiate, probably. Not to Palpatine.
Face it; Palpatine has Revan outclassed in pretty much every category. He has better lightsaber feats, better speed feats, better destructive feats, better sorcery feats and better TP feats. There's just no way Revan is lasting more than 15 seconds against him by feats, accolades, powerscaling, or anything, really.
So were the Jedi Palpatine one-shotted.
You think these victories put him on Palpatine's level?
If anything, the fact that his fight against non-Force sensitive Mandalore was even a challenge is a mark against him.
Ooohh, he faced dozens of opponents at a time! ROFLAMO - Sidious when confronted with an attempted coup kills 50 stormtroopers with Force lightning.
You can speculate about what he could do all you want, but the reality is that he has never demonstrated anything to put him on the level of Palpatine.
Yeah, totally, because he took on "dozens of opponents at a time."
Against Palpatine they certainly are. Scourge was terrified of facing a random dark council member. Everyone on the Jedi High Council outside of Yoda and Windu wouldn't last more than 20 seconds against Sidious.
Why can't he use a lightsaber here?
He ragdolled and pinned Maul and Oppress to the wall without any apparent effort. The most powerful person Vitiate ragdolled was his father.
Damn! You are telling me that I don't maintain track of my arguments?
My original response:
was intended for your original statement:
In my original post; I have pointed out a fact that Vitiate was immensely powerful during the era of Revan. To lend credibility to this assertion, I provided some reasons (additional facts) below it. No rocket-science here.
However, your response was to break my argument into different bits and respond to each bit separately; unfortunately, you lost track of my argument in this manner and now you are accusing me of sticking to adjectives and not following my own argument?
My advice to you is that you should read the entire response first and then respond to it. In this manner, you can avoid confusion.
Again! What kind of 'preparation' was involved in those mysterious developments? Did Vitiate hire some Force-users to use Battle Meditation to fuel his power during those moments? You need to prove these assertions, if you are making them in the first place (basic debating rule, my friend).
Those Knights of Zakuul had successfully cornered the Outlander and his allies including powerful Lana Beniko and Senya; those Knights might have slaughtered the entire group but Valkorion intervened.
Characters having some feats are not necessarily special. Some are given more attention then the others for storytelling purpose because developers do not have unlimited time and resources at their disposal to explore each and every character out there. Also, read my analogy before:
ANALOGY: Jedi Master Orgus Din had impressive Force abilities and considerable experience in combat but he eventually met his match in Darth Angral. The latter Sith wasn't a frontline warrior and doesn't have (individualistic) showings on par with the Jedi Master in question but we witness him killing Din on-screen.
My point is that you have to focus on more then some feats to assess the power of a character. Every bit of information/assessing tactic is useful such as accolades, power-scaling, feats and others.
Siphoning life-force of willing hosts is much easier then doing the same with unwilling hosts.
Revan (Reborn) wasn't a Sith Lord; he had ample knowledge of Force Drain powers but he used them only in dire situations but not to harm others. He was certainly capable of grand showings nonetheless:
Revan is able to draw upon the dark side energies of the planet below and use it during the battle... Simultaneously, more and more Jedi, unable to ignore the power emanating from the planet below, become corrupted by its influence.
From Chronicles of the Old Republic
Palpatine is a Sith; lying and manipulating others is part of his nature.
Anyways, I do not doubt Palpatine's ability to pull it off but I maintain my point-of-view that it would take more then a mere thought. Affecting the external environment with telekinetic powers is different from affecting the external environment with some other power. Palpatine may find it much easier to destroy a building with a Force Storm then with his telekinetic powers.
See above.
Palpatine > Revan (point-of-view) is not at dispute here. However, underestimating Revan is not wise either.
I'd say that Revan will challenge Palpatine as much as Yoda could, if not better. Revan have his own set of talents that grant him advantage in combat situations such as his mindset, ability to wield both Light and Dark Sides, formidable defensive abilities and esoteric powers such as Teleportation.
Revan doesn't needs to match Palpatine pound-for-pound in the context of feats to challenge him.
One-shotting is not the right choice of term here! Blitzing is. A lightsaber would kill any humaniod with a single well-executed hit.
And those Jedi Masters weren't peers of Revan in raw power; they were renowned for their dueling skills, not their strength in the Force. Mace Windu was a legitimate powerhouse however and he handled Palpatine just fine.
One-shotting a powerful member of the Dark Council is definitely Palpatine-tier showing.
As for your remark regarding non-Force sensitive; you think that non-Force sensitive beings are mooks and cannot challenge Force-users?
Watch this:
Specially the scene where Cad Bane and Obi-Wan fight [1 on 1]; here is a glimpse:
(please log in to view the image)
Underestimating non-Force sensitive beings is literally foolish. They form the backbone of the strength that defines an Empire and some of them are formidable enough to challenge even the most powerful Jedi.
Or you think that Obi-Wan was weakling?
Great for him.
Revan, during the events of Jedi Civil War, was in amnesic state and did not properly understand the depths of his powers at that time. CONTEXT, my friend.
Nonetheless! On the Star Forge; Revan destroyed an entire army of Star Forge battledroids initially (an accomplishment that impressed Darth Malak because these droids were specially designed to confront and defeat Force-users in general) and then cut a swath through the stationed Imperial forces comprising of elite troops and powerful Dark Jedi (dozens of them at times) to advance further. In the end, he defeated a well-prepared Darth Malak who had been drawing on the life-force of scores of Jedi captives to fuel his own to make sure that he will not tire out. Demonstrating such a consistent combat-prowess during amnesic state is not something to sneeze it; it is an accomplishment that only the most powerful Jedi in the galactic history was capable of.
Really?
1. Projecting the Dark Side power of a nexus planet towards the Jedi stationed on the fleets in the space above to influence them?
2. Excellent combat performance on the Star Forge while being in amnesic state?
3. Easily defeating powerful Sith Lords in confrontations?
4. Cheating death through sheer force of will?
You are wrong.
It is true that we cannot compare Revan and Palpatine in each and every action and/or discipline, but we can compare them in certain areas (like I have done above) to draw conclusions from.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Apr 11th, 2016 at 09:18 AM
Apr 11th, 2016 04:05 AM
He potentially loses from 4-6, probably dies at 7, stops at 8.
