Saber: Dooku
Force: Caedus
All Out: Blood bath - Caedus lost an arm to Jaina, but was still combat worthy. Dooku lost both his hands to Anakin after a brief, but spectacular duel. Personally, I'm not sure who would come out on top, but I'd have to say a very even match.
__________________ "Great men are forged in fire. It is the privilege of lesser men to light the flame . . . whatever the cost"
Registered: Aug 2008
Location: Don't Worry About It
um.. Caedus. He has shatterpoint and is Windu's equal in saber combat.. then he has all these force powers like slapping someone in the stomach and zapping them with force lightning.
He took out a jedi party single handedly.
He was a match for LOTF Luke Skywalker.
He is the lord of pain (jk) second to darth sion
Didn't Luke kick his ass in LOTF "Inferno" after seeing Ben being tortured? Even Caedus admitted that "Luke was the one swordsman in the galaxy he would never challange" (I hope I got the text right, but correct if I'm wrong).
__________________ "Great men are forged in fire. It is the privilege of lesser men to light the flame . . . whatever the cost"
Luke was the one the one who was winning the duel but it wasn't exactly an "all out ass kicking" and Luke nearly died at one point, though this was after he had a shot to kill Caedus but didn't because Ben, so the duel continued and Caedus would get an advantage at one point.
Dooku it seems to me was more of a finesse lightsaber duelist. Jacen from LOTF uses a more powerful form, but it expends energy quickly. So what if Jacen knew shatterpoint? A patient and calculated swordsman knows excatly when and where to strike. Force wise, Dooku is no match. Saber wise, it would go to Dooku. Well, that's my opinion.
__________________ "Great men are forged in fire. It is the privilege of lesser men to light the flame . . . whatever the cost"
Where is the proof that he expends so much more energy that he would tire first? He can ednure a lot more pain and injury than Dooku could ever have, and he is also of a younger and has the skywalkler blood in him.
Shatterpoints help users of the technique find weaknesses which a very handy technqiue to know. As Mace Windu note's in this line:
I sometimes can see the weak places in an opponent—shatterpoints where the unbreakable can be broken.
That can only take you so far as we saw in ROTS. Caedus himself is very calculated as he can mislead opponents as Kotorfan points out the example from inferno and he has shown himself be able to anticipate ( to be fair Dooku could probably do the same) his opponents actions more than once in a single duel.
I disagree with the latter and I'll post my reasons in a moment.
Last edited by Elite Hunter on Dec 12th, 2008 at 03:00 AM
Here is why I'd give the win in saber combat to Caedus and not Dooku.
In his duel with Luke he was able to contend with him and almost killed at one point even before the duel started Ben had already tried to assassinate him with his lightsaber and managed to stab him in the ribs. In the duel he and Luke were described as moving as "blurs."
As a teenager he was able to out duel vong warriors with absolutely no use of the force, not even on himself, which gives the Vong a big strength and maybe even the speed advantage over a normal human.
He survived a 4v1 attack in which he outdueled Kyle Katarn and at one he would have cut off Katarn's leg had another not made the save, then he would decapitate one of those jedi as well injuring Katarn (via his superior battle awareness compared to all 4 oppenents and force use. ) It is also worth noting that he wasn't even fully healed from his previous fight from Luke yet.
Even after he let Jaina take his useless arm ( I believe it was either that or his throat since he couldn't avoid the attack) he gave her beating during the first duel that Jaina noted that The loss of an arm did not seem to faze him. During their second duel which started by a completely blindsided stab through Caedus's stomach, he almost killed(still with one arm) Jaina and maybe could have taken her with him if he had not decided to stop fighting and warn Tenel Ka of the nanovirus. During their second duel Jaina, noted multiple times that she couldn't believe that Caedus was still fighting after all the wounds he received.
Then he has the age advantage over Dooku,his use of the shatterpoint technique, mastery of Aing-Tii fighting style and the fact that he can take incredible amount of pain that is only surpassed by Darth Sion as far as force users are concerned,leads me to believe that he wins the saber duel.
Valid points Elite Hunter. Very valid points, but all lightsaber forms have a weakness. You must admit that - even Vaapad and Juyo have weaknesses. If using Shatterpoint you can see a weakness yes? But the real question is, "how do I exploit that weakness?" The swordsman may suddenly change tactics on you or switch to another Form. Or he or she may be lulling you into a trap (see Episode I). Maul used the broken lightsaber into making Obi-Wan believe he had the upperhand. Then came the Force push and over the edge he went. That's what I mean by calm and calculated.
Caedus knew when he was ambushed by Jaina, that that first lightsaber wound was probably mortal. He was also hampered by the cut tendon. If a tendon on a leg is severed or damaged, then you're in serious trouble.
On to Kyle Katarn - his angle of attack was predictable. Eliminate Caedus. When you raise the topic of Vong warriors and assassins, didn't Anakin do the same? Rebuttal?
__________________ "Great men are forged in fire. It is the privilege of lesser men to light the flame . . . whatever the cost"
Registered: Aug 2008
Location: Don't Worry About It
to Darth Truculent
um about the shatterpoint exploting thing..
In ROTS when Mace used the shatterpoint against Palpy, he figured out that palpy didn't want to take the fight near the edge of the window because he was somehow scared. Thats why Windu shattered the glass window and defeated Palpy. Read the ROTS novel it says.
Caedus by far was the strongest (except for Revan save my opinion), but at the same time weakest Sith. Did he kill his Master to claim the title of Dark Lord of the Sith? No. Lumiya was killed at the hands of Luke and Lumiya wasn't really a true Sith either if you think about it. Tahiri was a pathetic excuse for an apprentice. Sure she could summon Force lightning, but so can Jaina and Zekk. Caedus did not exploit his power to its fullest extent. I do not mean that Force wise, I mean that politically. The only one who did that Sidious. Caedus had distractions: Tenel Ka and Allana - those surely should have been the real sacrifices, not Mara. Caedus had to cheat to kill Mara. Boba Fett even said so in Invincible "you aunt nearly handed the barves backside to him."
Anyway, back to my point. Caedus let his feelings for Tenel Ka and his daughter get in the way.
__________________ "Great men are forged in fire. It is the privilege of lesser men to light the flame . . . whatever the cost"
Also true, for Dooku I believe is obvious weakness is he age/stamina, in ROTS he was able to rejuvenate himself at one point yet when Anakin went on the offensive he couldn't do it again. Then Makashi users (and Dooku cause of his age) have hard time dealing with powerful strikes from forms such as Djem So. I can see Caedus exploiting this weakness.
Very true, yet we I don't believe that there is enough evidence to say that Dooku would entirely switch forms in a duel if he is losing, like he was in ROTS or against Yoda. It is rather obvious that Dooku heavily favors Makashi.
Obwian did have the upper hand originally but Maul was feeding on on "fed" off Obiwan and was gaining strength while Obiwan was losing his, so caused Obiwan to tire himself out.
Which duel are you referring to? The first or second? Regardless it does not excuse the pain and the fact that he still kept pushing himself to fight as hard as possible where other force users would go down. It is stated that in Inferno right after Luke stabbed Caedus in and his blade touched his kidney, that "Even that small wound would have left most humans paralyzed with agony. But Jacen thrived on pain, fed on it to make himself stronger and faster. He simply completed his pivot and landed a rib-crunching roundhouse." This is basically pointed out in multiple duels that one stab,slash or even amputation(which have ended other duels in the past) wont finish Caedus, I don't see Dooku being able last long enough to land multiple hits.
What point are you trying to make? Caedus outdueled Katarn twice and was going to severe his leg in the first half of the duel before another jedi got his saber in between Katarn's leg and Jacen's blade.
I don't recall Anakin either A) willingly not use the force in combat, not even to augment his own abilities to become stronger or faster. or B) not being able to touch the force like Jacen was in Traitor.
Elite Hunter are you sure you're not a lawyer? Lol. Lame excuse for a joke, but you make very excellent arguments.
Dooku heavily favors Makashi. That is a well known fact, but a good lightsaber artist would master at least three others. On my point of angle of attack that is "predictable" - each fighter has an objective right? Defeat your opponent, but if you continually use the same lightsaber form, then others and your opponent will understand how you fight. There are probably many times that Caedus had seen Kyle in action during the Vong War.
Mortal Wound: Thrived on pain yes, but the human body can only take so much damage. Even with the Force, he would have eventually have died from that wound (without medical attention). Sion was killed if you remember, but that's a different story.
Thank you for the discussion Elite Hunter. I look forward to talking to you more in the future.
__________________ "Great men are forged in fire. It is the privilege of lesser men to light the flame . . . whatever the cost"
Registered: Aug 2008
Location: Don't Worry About It
DT good points. I didn't think of some of them.
also to whoever.. Ben stabbed Jacen in the back with a vibroblade, and Luke stabbed him in the kidney. Those should be mortal right? so I don't think in Caedus' case that a stab to the stomach would be a mortal wound probably due to his accelerated healing and pain tolerance.
In a saber duel, Dooku would lose because of Caedus' shatterpoint ability and he would know that Dooku can't take powerful strikes, and beat him similar to what anakin did. Caedus wouldn't decide to win since he is on the dark side. He would simply just win.
In a Force duel, Caedus would win also because of his increased threshold of pain tolerance and overall power in the force.
Last edited by kotorfan on Dec 12th, 2008 at 04:08 AM
Registered: Oct 2008
Location: In a galaxy far, far away
Actually it's :
Dooku can't take Anakin's powerful strikes, because Anakin one of the most powerful Djem So user. It's Anakin's powerful strikes, not just a mere power strike.
Dec 12th, 2008 01:51 AM
