Well then Janus, perhaps you would tell us what exactly Sadow is going to do against Sidious before he gets wtfpwned? Exar Kun at least has a change with his amulet blasts and sith magic. What is Sadow going to do? Cast illusions?
I have no doubt that as the DLOTS he has considerable power. However, we don't really see anything from him, nor any of the other ancient sith of that era. More than likely, Ragos was the last powerful sith of the ancient sith.
Well, bearing in mind that I am far from an expert on the Ancient Sith, according to Darth Sexy -- who is, in my opinion -- and others, the most acclaimed feat that Sadow can perform without his artifacts and amulet is hurling a brick. If that then, is the case, Darth Sidious as of Revenge of the Sithfar outstrips the Ancient Sith Lord in terms of telekinesis, being able to hurl Senate pods the size of standard automobiles, many at a time. Furthermore, a pre-DE Sidious was able to use Force lightning to obliterate a veritable army of corrupt stormtroopers and then -- with one gout of lightning -- he rendered three powerful Sith acolytes (capable of summoning 'Darth Maul', who was in turn capable of challenging Darth Vader in swordsmanship and ability) to charred bone and ash before they could even defend themselves.
Sadow is a non-issue here, Janus, he's treading in the wake of beings with far greater raw power. Now, Kun, on the other hand, would be a problem. Perhaps he could pull a victory as Sidious crushes Sadow.
Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Hiding from zombies
The idea of trying to reason with you to about any match involving Sidious is a bit like trying to push a peanut across a continent during orbital bombardment; not my idea of a great time. Both of you absolutely adore him and think he's pretty much unbeatable. I've never seen either one of you honestly admit that Sidious may be outduelled by anyone.
That will be QUITE enough of that, Janus, because I've claimed on numerous occasions the following people would very well be capable of outdueling him: Luke, Mace, Yoda, possibly Jacen. For DE Palpatine? Luke is the only one of those who'd stand a chance.
I hardly appreciate that when I've made more than an effort to be polite to you in recent times whether it was returned or not. I've made my case more than once, whether you've seen it or responded to it or not. I
This is also an all out fight, not just a duel. If you want to put a good premise forth for these two, then do so. Again, my idea for an IM conversation between the three of us is till open, since that'll apparently work better.
I hope I didn't come across as harsh, but I felt that was uncalled for.
Escape, while I'm sure you're not "an expert" - not to claim that I am - after debating the material for almost two years I highly doubt that you're as ignorant to it as that last post made you seem, no offense intended.
And honestly, you guys act as if Exar Kun invented or created all of what made him great on his own. Whose Sith magic did he master, now? Whose artifacts and notes turned a "formidable student" into one of the most powerful Sith of all time in a matter of months? Whose amulet gave him the power to rip a massive Sith wyrm to shreds the first time he touched it? Seriously. I'm not saying that Naga Sadow alone could take out Sidious, or even Exar Kun. But given that he obviously has all the resources his successor had and much, much more, as well as several decades of added experience, his control and mastery over everything Exar knows is going to be formidable.
Now, assuming he's not going into battle naked, Sadow is going to have his armor, his sword, and the same amulet Kun wields, given that he is its original owner. So while DE Sidious himself is likely more powerful than either of these guys, I don't think he can handle both of them.
EDIT: And LS, I'm pretty sure NJO/DN Luke would manhandle DE Sids in a duel. Hell, Mace or Yoda are probably better swordsmen than him, if by a slight margin.
Last edited by Eminence on Aug 28th, 2007 at 01:18 AM
Just commenting here: We're going to remember also that Palpatine has a collection of amulets, Sith swords, armor, lanvoroks, etc.
Even together, it's not outside of Palpatine's abilities to finish off one of them quickly and then focus on the other. I doubt he'd engage them with a saber right off-with his power and knowledge of the Dark Side, as well as a mastery of numerous higher level Jedi techniques that'd be totally alien to Kun and Sadow, he wouldn't need to.
I'd honestly doubt Luke would take it easily-the final duel they had together were as pure avatars of the light and Dark Side, so they weren't fighting at their normal stages. In sheer dueling abilities, DE Palpatine is a good margin above Yoda and Mace. The speed and technique he's described to display exceeds them by a good margin
Also, on the topic of Naga only throwing a brick, using the Force to dislodge a brick and hurl it at somebody's head, while swinging around a hundred pound sword and fighting someone who is roughly your equal in a sword fight is quite impressive. If my memory serves me correctly, none of the Jedi or Sith in the films ever toss objects at another while their dueling, Vader kinda does to Luke in ESB but Luke is greatly weaker than he is, so.
I have to agree with Lightsnake, wholeheartedly, Janus. I have done my very best to be patient, understanding, and open-minded with you since your return to the forums -- whether you would like to accept that or not (I'm aware that at least one of your contemporaries on EoD applauded me for it). And yet you, someone who is smarter and older than me, can't summon the decency to return the favor? I'm terribly disappointed, and I expected better from you this time around, not to sound condescending.
You have said two things in that mini-rant that has admittedly annoyed me. Let me address the first one:
This is the culmination of our entire conflict; this statement is naked, vulnerable, and completely unsupported. We can debate it, if you like. I've stated -- on numerous occasions -- that Palpatine is far from invincible. I've said on many threads that he can and will be beaten by his hypothetical opponents. You, for some reason, do conveniently overlook them. In fact, several of these statements have been made on threads you have visited since your return. I've gone well out of my way to make people understand that Mace Windu's victory over Palpatine was not through devious manipulation but rather through Windu's superior skill and expertise with a blade. The blind fanboy that you paint me out to be wouldn't, Janus. Nor would he go out of his way to defend the Ancient Sith against SW LeGenD's tirade or argue relentlessly to the fools who believe Yoda was somehow bested by the Dark Lord through superior skill rather than a stalemate. If you want me to go through and link you to the threads in question to prove how wrong you are, say the word and I'll begin.
The second statement:
Then you have not been paying attention. Tell me, and I'll go through and link/quote my arguments. Likewise, Janus, would you like me to go through and list your attempts to downplay and degrade Sidious and his achievements? I'm quite certain that I can find a vast multitude of such statements from you.
The bottom line is this: I'm willing to discuss this, debate this, and prove to you that I'm not a Sidious-fanboy. Not, at least, as bad of one as you think. Are you? Because, all I've seen so far is me questioning your argument -- offering that Sadow's mightiest feat without Sith arcana and support was hurling a brick, and rightly telling you that Sidious is far more impressive -- and you offering this instead. Every time you make an anti-Sidious argument, if I don't think it's legitimate, I will counter it. I will argue it. And it will continue until you decide to a.) debate it. b.) discuss it. or c.) consent and move on. For every downplay, I'll just build it back up.
So do you really want to go there? Make crap up like this? Or -- for God's sake -- will you just do as Lightsnake has suggested so that we might just end it all in a mature fashion?
Debating what material? You mean the Ancient Sith? Not really. I've debated in favor of them a few times since you've been here, but it was primarily due to the information provided by Darth Sexy. As for the Ancient Sith vs. Palpatine, I argued it because Palpatine's feats outstripped those of the Ancient Sith (again, going by what I saw at the time). But I'm curious, Faunus. Was there something behind this statement that you want to tell me? A friend of mine gets the impression you've said that, hinting that I just fabricated a reason to contest Sidious's defeat.
In which case, I'd be a little disappointed, but I don't expect anything different.
I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. If you managed to find some super secret, antagonistic message in what I said, I really can't help you.
Um, alright then.
We're also going to remember that we've never seen them carried on his person, so there's no reason to assume that he can actually use them in this fight.
I don't see this happening. They're not Kit Fisto or Agen Kolar.
What "high-level Jedi techniques" are going to be of any use whatsoever against two powerful Sith Lords? At best, Jedi abilities might be able to counter some of the few attacks Palpatine's Sith powers can't, but I doubt that. And given that Exar Kun shrugged off perhaps one of the most offensive light attacks there is - and from a Jedi Master who had centuries to perfect it - I don't see any practical application of Jedi techniques here.
A fairly inexperienced Luke with twenty years less experience manage to outduel him. As of DN, I can't see Sidious lasting more than a couple of minutes against him in a duel.
I mean Jedi powers that're used offensively...Morichro, which took an ancient and powerful Dark Jedi out of commission for millenia, Malacia, which was enough to throw an experienced Jedi totally off balance, force light, etc. Th factor here is that the Sith will have absolutely no experience against a great number of what Palpatine has at his disposal, including the techniques he himself created
From someone who was
A. Trying to incapacitate him without any permanent harm
B. Far, far weaker than Palpatine.
If Palpatine goes for Exar in the force, it'll have a much greater effect than anything Odan-Ur could manage, this is hard to deny. Especially when Palpatine can seize for a direct kill, a technique he invented that involves focusing the power of his hate and anger on his opponents, ending with their deaths practically instantly. The only person he taught this technique was Luke.
Faunus, I will make myself clearer:
You recall when Ganner and Jacen become pure avatars of the light side? That's what happened to Luke and Palpatine-only with him on the other side, obviously. It's not sheer skill to sheer skill in their basic forms-when that last happened, Luke ended up flat on his back with a saber at his throat, and this is a Luke described as exceptionally skilled in the ways of the Force-to the extent of short circuiting an army of Balmorra's advanced BDs, and even moreso with the Jedi lightsaber-Dark Empire issue 1, I believe, substantiated further by the audio book.
There seems a bit of an inequality here, Faunus...Exar Kun couldn't even have had twenty years experience fighting, and he was studying the Dark Side for a total of six months...yet, his victories over far older and more experienced opponents are proof of his great power. Similar things happen with Luke, it's proof of Palpatine's inadequeacy, though I digress.
Experience means nothing at the state Luke and Jacen reached at those points,: to quote from Jacen, he 'was incapable of making mistakes', and if not for Luke having to fight for Leia and her unborn child, he might not have beaten Palpatine there.
Also, on the subject of artifacts and all; Palpatine definitely knows how to use a Sith Sword and has mastered the use of the deadliest items in his collection. I find the idea that he'd be incapable of using them skeptical to say the least
Aug 27th, 2007 07:04 AM
