Champion will win. Juggernaut is not truly unstoppable. His power is drawn from Cyttorak, who is at best Galactus level in terms of overall power.
Moreover, Champion draws his power from the Big Bang. Recent scientific studies have shown that such a power source, would make one omnipotent in the real world, as well as in the comic book world.
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A world of savagery, super-science, and sorcery. But one man bursts his bonds to fight for justice. He is Thundarr, the Barbarian!!!
ok. so, i guess we are going to ignore the actual events that Champion has been involved in. I guess we will just forget about the facts that he almost ALWAYS loses.
I have known plenty of guys that were involved in martial arts, or wrestling or stuff like that for YEARS AND YEARS, AND were very very strong compared to opponents.
And, they would still lose all the time.
That is the same with Champion.
He sucks.
No matter how strong he is, or how many years he has fighting, he still sucks.
Hey, don't take it so hard. Maybe he is just suffering from "Burn Out" the last couple million years or something.
Either way, he loses.
Because, well, as I said, he sucks. And, is sucky. Like a sucker.
Gender: Unspecified Location: REALM OF THE UNDERWORLD
Nah, he losses cause his a badguy... a villain.. Make him a hero give him a new hair duo and hid be like Batman w/ incalculable strength.. million of years of exp and all...
Really dough i think Champion should take it.. Unexhaustable power source + there is no limits of what they can do, Elders i mean...
The causation of a pre-existing valid preclusion, does not make one's post-existing conclusion valid, despite such conclusion being factually sound.
Moreover, if you are so adamant about others who "ignore" events that the Champion has lost, why are you also so adamant about ignoring events that he has won?
Logic Fallacy of False Dilemma
To assume that..
A. Martial artists train for many years and become strong.
B. Strong martial artists loose "all the time."
Does not support the conclusion that the Champion being a strong martial artist, will loose "all the time" to the Juggernaut
Logic Fallacy of Ad Hominem Abusive..
Stating that Champion "sucks" is not giving a valid reason for why he will be defeated.
Moreover, each time one seeks to damage the credibility of another using personal attacks, they only succeed in damaging their own.
If you are so certain that "he looses", why have you not provided a single reason as to why "he looses" in your post?
If you are so certain that Juggernaut wins, why is it that you have not provided a single shred of evidence, which would demonstrate him defeating opponents on the level of the Champion?
It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.
Perhaps you should enter the arena of the Champion, before you become qualified to speak against him.
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A world of savagery, super-science, and sorcery. But one man bursts his bonds to fight for justice. He is Thundarr, the Barbarian!!!
Last edited by The_Barbarian on Nov 5th, 2006 at 01:02 AM
Um, ok. Just give me a second to shake all of that tripe out of my head... aaahhh... That's more like it.
Anyway, you ignored the actual points I made, so you could give yourself an opportunity to show all the "Comic Book Forum" people that you are well-versed in..., well, in what?! Latin, Debate and "Ability to annoy"?
Great. As I said, to make it simpler for you:
1. Champion has a terrible record. There is no reason to go into detail about the pitiful, few wins he may have. As there is no reason to go into description of his losses. His record is terrible. Period.
2. (In regard to your response to my Martial Arts/Strength comment): As others make use of the "Power" and "Skill" arguments that I am used to seeing in this forum, I jumped to the logical and inevitable conclusion of that train of thought, and made another point. WHich you misunderstood. I have known people who had so much experience, and so much physical ability and strength, that there should have been no reason for their lack of positive results.
3. Let's flow into your 3rd point: What is "Suckiness"? Hehe.
Therefore, it is possible for somebody to have all the attributes in the world, and still fail miserably, for whatever reason. Rather than try and figure out what that reason is, (in Champion's case), I just chalk it up to him having some sort of "Dark Cloud" over him, or burnout, or whatever. I don't care. The point is, he does not seem to be able to make good use of all the tools at his disposal. Which, in the end, is all that matters.
4. I am so certain that he loses, because in comparison to Juggs, Champion has always made extremely poor use of his power and experience. While, Juggernaut has show an inate ability to make reasonably good use of his, against some pretty serious opposition.
Which would show either better fighting ability, more effective power, or both.
Gender: Unspecified Location: Inside your computer
Considering his power, most of his battles are not what they should be on a forum. Champion should be one of the top tier guys. Besides, he loses mostly because of his patience and respect for game rules. He's a class A jobber.
Congratulations on committing the Logic Fallacy of the Appeal to Ridicule and the Fallacy of the Strawman...
To admonish and make fun of one's style of debate in relation to a "Comic Book Forum", does not support the validity of one's argument.
Moreover, this argument does not have any relevancy to the main argument being presented in this thread.
And by that same logic -- Juggernaut has a '..terrible record -- period'
Let us presume that you are correct, and that lack of positive results -- does indeed equate to who will be the victor of this battle.
Using this logic, it would then be more logical for one to assume that the Juggernaut has the greater "lack of positive results" when compared to the Champion - seeing as how the former character, has had much more comic book appearances than the latter.
Your personal opinion of the Champion's "Suckiness" does not dismiss his overall ability and potential. That is the reason why we have these debates, which are predominantly based on a character's overall power and skill, rather than the outcomes of battles predetermined by sales and overall popularity of a character.
Moreover, as it has already been stated to you above - by your logic, the Juggernaut has a much "Darker Cloud" hanging over him, since he has lost many more battles than the Champion.
You cannot have it both ways -- either we compare the individuals on basis of comic book history, or we compare them on basis of powers and ability.
History has shown us that Juggernaut has lost many more battles than the Champion.
From a power/ability stance, the Champion is capable of harnessing much more potential than Juggernaut. He receives his power from the residual energies of the big bang, which started all life within the universe. This includes life within the Crimson Cosmos.
Additionally, the Champion cannot be killed until the universe ends, due to the Grandmaster's pact with Death. He also possesses thousands of years worth of fighting skill, and has defeated entire planets full of trained warriors.
Furthermore, the only way the Juggernaut can win this battle, is if he somehow manages to molecularly disperse the Champion's physical form. You have yet to provide any evidence of him being capable of such an attack from a historical or power related perspective - and being as such, the credibility of your argument will continue to be severely lacking.
__________________
A world of savagery, super-science, and sorcery. But one man bursts his bonds to fight for justice. He is Thundarr, the Barbarian!!!
Last edited by The_Barbarian on Nov 5th, 2006 at 03:09 AM
Blah, Blah, Blah, does anybody else have anything interesting to say about the actual match?
I am not interested in reading a point of view from somebody that is more interested in proving himself correct, over actually weighing facts, feats and battle history.
This isn't a "debate". Nobody in here is interested in how well you write your perspective, and MANY of us, comic book forum folks, contrary to popular belief, or extremely intelligent. Painfully so, in many cases.
So, smarts and debate ability do no impress us.
If you want to impress, and if you want to prove your point, you need:
Facts
a. Juggernaut has defeated more powerful opponents than Champ.
b. Champion has lost to weaker opponents than Juggernaut.
c. Champion has more Marvel-written losses than Juggernaut.
d. Juggernaut has more Marvel-written wins than Champion.
e. Juggernaut has shrugged off blows from the same characters that have actually caused major damage to Champion. (Including "non-Top-Tiers" like the Thing)
These facts were just off the top of my head.
And, no, the power than Champion uses does not have anything to do with the Crimson energies of Cyttorak.
Nor has Champ showed any ability to utilize large portions of his energy, or an ability to tap it quickly, or an ability to tap it in any way that has significantly helped him in battle.
Do you have any idea how many opponents Juggernaut has fought, who "supposedly" have UNLIMITED POWER?
Juggernaut also has access to unlimited power.
Unless it has been shown in battle, in a fight record, in feats, etc, it doesn't mean anything in an argument like this.
Um, ok. Yeah, my posts were obsessive and hateful.
Obviously a "fanboy". Right? Ouch, it's really playing on my mind!
I looked back, and saw my point of view as being the one adding up wins and losses, facts and feats. Same way I would play a game of poker.
"Figures", in other words.
Then, funny thing is, I looked at what you wrote.
Dude, out of the too of us, you were the one describing the nature of "powers", trying to explain which power came from a greater source, as if they were "real".
Ya may want to take a look before you start talking fanboy, and accusing people of immersing themselves too far into the comic books they read.
Out of the too of our posts, yours is the one that eminates a strong feeling of "reverence" for the Champion.
And, also, you were the first to try and prove you intelligence, or should I say, appeared as a pseudo-intellectual, while showing us all your grasp of latin and debating skills.
Sorry bud. Ya got yerself a spanking. Then, instead of just trying to come up with some comic book factoids to prove yer point, you went and had to pull the old "Fanboy" card. Wow, calling names over something so silly.
Doesn't work. We can all smell that you are the guy wearing the super hero underwear.
Juggernaut has a great record if you are going by his physical combatants. of coarse he is going to lose to a team who happens to have a telepath on hand. can you name the times when he lost any other way???
well, juggernaut is always brought down by the same thing... which would be telepathic assault. where as champion was brought down by what??? going by YOUR logic, juggernaut has the ability to wreck champion, where as champion regardless of fighting style, finesse or any other word you choose to describe it, cannot bring juggernaut down physically. period.
and your opinion means just as much. lets see champion take some reality shattering punches from juggernaut (which he has done on more than one occasion). if we are talking about overall power, juggernaut is powered by the very same bands that hold the entire 616 universe together...
where is your proof of this?? you seem more interested in trying to prove somebody wrong rather than actually debate... if you dont believe me please keep reading...
or you could do both??? in which case you are not doing EITHER.
well then by your logic above, you could devide those battles again. physically and mentally. juggernaut doesnt lose his physical battles. champion however, does.
well this was stated on panel, but never shown... however, juggernaut is driven by the energies that hold the universe together. hmmm, i'd say juggernaut has a hell of a lot of potential considering he was crushing entire dimensions with his power.
which means what??? he has also lost to she hulk who trained for a short time for the up coming battle with champion. same she hulk tried to hit a half powered juggernaut and hurt her hand. the entire time, juggernaut standing there un moved, un phased with only a smirk on his face.
the only way champion has to win is if he does the same thing to juggernaut which... wont happen. even then, i'm not so sure. juggernaut has been stripped to the bone with NO ILL EFFECTS WHAT SO EVER. or if he telepathically assaults juggernaut. neither of which he has shown to do before.
furthermore, if you place juggernaut into the ring with champion from his original appearance, thing broke champs ribs. juggernaut has well above thing level strength and punching power. champ has been knocked unconsciouss by physical force several times, whereas classic juggernaut hasnt... if i'm not mistaken a knock out is counted as a win. in which case juggernaut is going to win this fight.
Last edited by KillAll on Nov 5th, 2006 at 07:06 AM
You truly don't see how calling Champion "sucky", stating that he suffers from "burnout", and then proceeding to call a post that defends him "tripe" could be deemed "hateful"? Consider me surprised..
It's quite apparent that someone here is playing games, and it definitely is not I.
How many times must it be explained to you? An irrelevant argument or analogy cannot produce a valid conclusion.
It is considered a "Strawman", in other words.
Your analogous relationship of a "poker" game cannot prove your argument as it pertains to the topic of this thread, and commits the Logic Fallacy of the "Strawman." Once again, the initial topic is not about how well you "play a game of poker", but instead about who will win a fictional battle between the Champion and the Juggernaut.
First, I am not your "dude."
Second, in order for one to argue that anything is "real" or not "real", they have to have authority within the presumed reality that they are judging. Clearly, you are not an editor, a writer, nor an artist over at Marvel, and do not understand the interworkings of their universe. So you have no ability to determine how reality works within it.
Says the pot to the kettle.
No one ever attempted to "prove" their "intelligence." Good attempt at trying to bate me with another strawman argument. I merely stated that this was my debate style, and it was you who ridiculed and labeled it as being silly, specifically my usage of "latin" and professional "debating skills" within a "comic book forum."
I do not wear underwear, and I don't know what you are trying to imply about my bodily odor - or what type of personal activities I like to engage in during my free time. Any more comments about either and you can consider yourself reported.
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A world of savagery, super-science, and sorcery. But one man bursts his bonds to fight for justice. He is Thundarr, the Barbarian!!!
Last edited by The_Barbarian on Nov 5th, 2006 at 07:44 AM
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