1. Stass Allie and Ali Gallia
2. Cin Drallig and Shaak Ti
3. ROTJ Luke and ROTS Vader
4. ROTS Vader and ROTS Obi-Wan
5. ROTS Sidous and ROTS Vader
6. OT Sidious and OT Vader
7. OT Sidious and Galen Marek
Takes place in the Valley of the Jedi each combatant gets full rest.
Crap I knew I forgot something new list
1. Stass Allie and Ali Gallia
2. Cin Drallig and Shaak Ti
3. ROTJ Luke and ROTS Vader
4. ROTS Vader and ROTS Obi-Wan
5. ROTS Sidous and ROTS Vader
6. OT Sidious and OT Vader
7. OT Sidious and Galen Marek
8. NJO Luke
Registered: Sep 2008
Location: Somewhere in the galaxy
I doubt they would lose at 6. Yoda or Windu can hold their own against the Emperor long enough until the other one beat vader. Then together they can beat Sidious. As far as 7 goes, the same could happen since Marek isn't good enough in the lightsaber in order to think this 2 foes. As for NJO Luke is hard to say. I guess he could do it all out, however I am not so sure if he could take them using only the lightsaber.
__________________ I have never let my schooling interfere with my education
Hold their own? Absolutely, but neither of them is powerful enough to defeat Palpatine circa the Original Trilogy on their own. And while Windu is powerful enough to yield a victory against Vader in a lightsaber duel, the Dark Lord is far more powerful in the Force.
Assuming neither of them crush Windu with the Force and deposit him into the nearest trash recepticle.
The lightsaber isn't necessarily the decisive tool in this fight. Dooku was able to crush Obi-Wan Kenobi with the Force even when he was on the verge of desperation and exhaustion while simultaneously fighting Anakin Skywalker, Palpatine disarms Yoda, and hurls General Kota across the room when he attacked the Emperor with a lightsaber. And Marek is more powerful than Vader who, in turn, is more powerful than Mace.
He can if he blitzes Windu immediately and would then defeat Yoda after a considerable fight.
If ROTS Yoda fights Vader, he destoys vader, whereas Palpatine beats Mace. The question is who will die first, Vader or Mace. However, if Yoda fights Sidious and Mace fights Vader, the only chance the Jedi have are with a lightsaber. I'm not too sure what Vader can do to Mace with the force that Mace cannot handle using his Vaapad, but Palpatine should beat Yoda eventually. More than likely they die at 6. If not, they die at 7.
I disagree. That was a draw- until Anakin stepped in. The saber duel, at least, was a win on Mace's part. So let's say, instead: Palpatine beats Mace if he can keep range. I'm questioning my assumption that Palpatine was holding back in the Saber portion of the duel. The novel certainly seems to indicate that with Vaapad, Mace was Palpatine's equal, and with Shatterpoint, potentially his superior. (During close combat)
Registered: Sep 2008
Location: Somewhere in the galaxy
First, the burden of proof is with you when you say that OT Sidious is miles ahead from ROTS. In fact, I recall Bail Organa saying that the last time he saw similar feats to Marek's ones was during the CW, which mean he is at max as strong as yoda (and I think it's generally accepted that yoda>marek in the force). So, if marek can stop OT sidious' lightning with his bare hands, why wouldn't yoda be able to do the same? Basicly sheer force power alone wouldn't be enough to win the fight against yoda, and sidious did got physically weaker, stated by the Dark Side Sourcerbook if I am not wrong. As far as Vader being FAR away from Windu, you are still to show me Vader's feats far surpassing Windu's ones, as holding hundreds of rocks with the force, using TK to let a ship faling in GG's head (obsession) or landing six blows in vastor before he could blink (and this without even using CW cartoons), tell me how this puts mace FAR behind vader. Besides, vader didn't even use the force to beat maul, why would be able to do that against some stronger in the force?
The same way Sidious did against him in ROTS?
First, Obi-wan defences were broken by dooku mastery of lightsaber before he used the force, so he didn't exactly put the optimal force defence, second yoda was disarmed because he had just jumped to sidious pod and Kota is MILES away from Sidious (he was not even a council member). Nonetheless, the situations are different. Galen can't use force lightning on windu unless he wants it reflected back to his face. How will he gonna beat him, throwing stuff at him? Mace isn't Mister Darth "I never run" Vader, he can dodge whatever he throws at him. TK? Mace himself stated that Vastor's power were on the level of yoda's one (and don't bring nick's statement, windu's one has much more credibility) yet Vastor couldn't just overpower him with his TK. So, what gonna happen? Windu will be all over galen with his purple saber and eventually will kill him. Then Sidious lose.
That's what I said.
__________________ I have never let my schooling interfere with my education
Last edited by Darth Angel on Oct 27th, 2008 at 11:53 PM
I did not say nor insinuate that the Emperor of the original trilogy is "miles" ahead of the Emperor of the prequel trilogy.
That is a baseless assumption.
You say that almost as if Bail Organa is an omniscient source or that I am contesting that opinion. That Organa hasn't seen feats such as those displayed by Galen Marek does nothing to undermine my point. And was Organa present for Marek's manipulation of an Imperial Star Destroyer? And did he mention that statement after Marek battled the Emperor?
We saw what happened how much pain and energy it took for Yoda to perform the feat twenty years earlier.
Moreover, keep the following in mind: according to the official databank, Marek "was no match for the power of Darth Sidious" and the novelization, comic, and databank confirm that Marek entered a state of oneness with the Force that resulted in his death. Prove that Yoda can or will do the same. Meanwhile, Sidious shrugged off a colossal explosion without injury.
Palpatine, at this point, is more powerful and more skilled in the Force. He was already equal to Yoda twenty years before he "gathered the greatest works of knowledge from a million worlds" and "studied the Force in all its aspects."
Sidious was growing physically frail due to the strength of the dark side within him, but keep in mind: he shrugged off an explosion that caused colossal visual damage to the Death Star.
The narrator of Coruscant Nights confirmed that Vader was far more powerful than Kar Vastor who, in turn, was better than Windu "on [Windu's] best day."
Yes. And I suppose since Darth Vader hurled the Emperor down a reactor core, he would automatically be able to do so on every occasion. Please. That line of thought is ridiculous. Palpatine nearly killed Windu from Force lightning while being on his ass, unarmed, and being blasted in the face with his own lightning. If he chose to attack Windu with the Force, he would demonstrably be able to defeat him.
No, he didn't. Dooku disengaged and hurled Obi-Wan away, twice.
Palpatine blasted Yoda over a second later. Yoda had enough time to land on the pod and brandish his saber in a threatening fashion before Sidious did anything. Given light-speed reactions yielded by most Jedi, is it your contention that Yoda -- who can deflect dozens upon dozens of blaster bolts in ridiculous time -- requires a full second to gain his bearings when he's not being attacked?
False premise. Being a council member does not mean you're the pinnacle of Jedi combat. Anakin Skywalker wasn't on the council until Palpatine forced him down Windu's throat. Keep in mind that Kota is one of a very small group capable of deflecting Force lightning without a lightsaber, and casually (something Windu has never demonstrated).
When Mace is submerged in Vaapad and is prepared. He's not going to be necessarily either at the beginning of this fight.
False premise. So were Roan Shryne, Kento Marek, Galen Marek, and Luke Skywalker, yet they were all battered at various points by telekinetic storms conjured by Darth Vader.
And Vader, according to Coruscant Nights, is stronger than Vastor by a considerable amount. And he only compares Yoda and Skywalker to Vastor, not that Vastor is somehow equal to them.
And if I may say so, you've done a terrible job of proving it. Keep your conclusions to items that have factual basis. I'm not interested in your personal opinion.
Windu never held hundreds of rocks in the air or anything like that in shatterpoint. He caused a landslide to happen though it was going to happen either way but he wanted to speed it up so it really isn't that uber of a feat.
For the record Kota not being on the council is should not be a knock on his skills. Cin Drallig wasn't on the council yet he was the battlemaster of the jedi temple and the former battlemaster Anoon Bondara whose technical skill is better then Yoda's wasn't on the council. Hell Anakin killed Dooku but was put on the council for a special reason that had nothing to do with his power,skills, wisdom,etc.
Last edited by Elite Hunter on Oct 28th, 2008 at 12:17 AM
Registered: Sep 2008
Location: Somewhere in the galaxy
Good.
He isn't the omniscient narrator but he is nonetheless a credible source. Anyway, what's your point, are you trying to prove that marek>yoda in the force?
I didn't said it was easy for yoda, but he did stop sidious' lightning and in the end reflected it back, making an explosion that affected both of them. And the official databank's quote is credible in the way that states that sidious>marek. However, marek did stop sidious' lightning without the help of his lightsaber. And if you see the cut scene from the video game you see that marek blasted himself in order to save the senators, trying to kill the emperor, vader and the stormtroopers. That doesn't mean that he need to enter in that state of oneness in order to stop sidious' lightning, which he was not when he put himself between kota and sidious, as we clearly see in the cut scene.
I didn't deny that he was more powerful. What I contested was a big boost from his ROTS incarnation. And I didn't say he was weak, just that he grow weaker, even though that point could have easily corrected by using the force to augument his physical abilities.
But wasn't nick rostu who stated that in Jedi Twilight, after feeling the full power of vader? Also, doesn't that happen just 3 months after ROTS? So, basicly this Vader would be almost as strong as Anakin in ROTS. So, ROTS Anakin is suppose to be stronger in the force then Vastor who windu said that was as strong as yoda? It's obvious that nick's statement was inaccurate.
Is that suppose to be an analogy? Because if it was it was a very bad one. Vader didn't grab Sidious head on and throw him to the reactor core so the comparisson is meaningless. And palpatine maybe nealy killed windu with force lightning, but the true is that this same force lightning was throwed back to him. The point here is that sidious had the force as an option and actually used it when he used his force lightning, and in the end, he lost. So, as I said, the burden of proof is with you in order to show me that Sidious could have ended the duel with a flick of his wrist.
Yes he did. And I didn't deny that dooku owned him with the force.
Don't blame me for movie timing. Maul had lightning fast reaction as well and see how obi-wan slayed him. Anyway, if yoda had not landed in the pod I believe he could have stopped the lightning with the saber. Hell, windu was extremely close to sidious and was fast and strong enough to stop the attack with the lightsaber, so I think that it's obvious that the explanation for yoda to lose his saber was arrival to the battle scene with an enourmous force jump.
Except from the fact that vader STATED that Shaak Ti, as a council member, was superior to Kota, which makes my premise not-so-false. And he deflected the lightning of a neophyte SK...
What's the point here? Mace catches lightning with the saber, mace submerges in vaadpad, marge deflects lightning. It doesn't take more then a blink of an eye. Mace submerged himself back into the vaadpad in the instant sidious attack him with the lightning, so it's not something that difficult (or slow) to achieve.
Why is that a false premise? You are the one using a fallacy for the second time, the fallacy of the analogy. None of this jedi, when they fought vader, was near the level of windu in mastery of the force or displays of agility (see CW as an example).
According to who? Nick Rostu? And he does compare them in order to show their similarity in power. Why do you think he would do that? Show me other explanation that doesn't imply that windu was saying that vastor wasn't close to them in power. The burden of proof is with you.
Neither I am interested in yours. I did a terrible job proving my points? Look at yours then. What did you prove?
Anyway, I have to rest now (it's late where I live) but since I know you will want to continue the debate, tomorrow we end this.
__________________ I have never let my schooling interfere with my education
Last edited by Darth Angel on Oct 28th, 2008 at 01:05 AM
In the future, don't pull misleading statements out of your ass to try to twist my point.
Jesus H. Christ, you're on a roll. I'm not going to tell you again: stop pulling misleading statements out of your ass to try to twist my point. I simply disagreed with your chosen logic, which is characteristically horrendous.
He demonstrated enormous difficulty holding an inferior Palpatine's lightning at bay. It's your burden to prove that he could do the same without entering a state of oneness with the Force.
Another false premise. It said that he didn't "even bother fighting back," being no match for Sidious's power, and opened himself up to the Force. Given that he held the lightning at bay without visibly struggling as much as Yoda did (even though the novelization indicates he was in a great deal of physical pain), he was building up the power to unleash in the explosion, giving him relative immunity for the Force lightning. The only alternative is that Marek is as powerful (if not more powerful) than Yoda, which is the very point you've been adamantly denying.
He was in a bad physical state due to the toll that the dark side was taking on him, forcing him to maintain sustenance from Byss. But he still shrugged off an immense explosion.
It was brought up by the narrator and then confirmed by Rostu. Not that it matters, since you're willing to take Bail Organa at his word -- "a credible source" -- you have no choice but to do the same with Nick Rostu, since, unlike Organa, he actually has Force sensitivity.
It wasn't, and if you'd read Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader, Vader was poised at a "significant increase" in his abilities just prior to the invasion of Kashyyyk. Meaning the statement is still valid, I'm still right, and you just fell into a gaping logic hole.
Stop being intentionally dense. Sidious was obviously confident that he could defeat Windu with lightsaber abilities and used the Force only when he had no alternative, and despite being in an inferior position, he still nearly killed Windu. Likewise, keep in mind that the weakness Sidious claimed was feigned. He could have kept going. Unlike Windu. So Sidious nearly killed Windu with Force lightning from an inferior position and during a time when he was under great physical pain.
Disengaging blades =/= being defeated or knocked back with a lightsaber. Stop pulling misleading statements out of your ass.
Not a valid excuse.
Hubris, given that he spent the past few minutes mocking and taunting Kenobi by casually sending sparks at him with a lightsaber and pacing around like a cat cornering a mouse.
I'm not interested in your opinion, since you haven't proved that Yoda needed that full second to prepare himself.
Windu has the benefit of massing much more than Yoda and possessing natural superior physical strength, as well as a superconducting loop via Vaapad, and lastly, leverage. Yoda had none of these. And I'm still not interested in your opinion.
You amaze me with your inability to reason. That Vader personally considered Shaak Ti to be better than Kota does not mean a damn thing. The fact remains that Anakin Skywalker was among the finest in the order, demonstrably greater than the majority of the Council, and yet was not given a seat. Neither was Count Dooku or Qui-Gon Jinn or Anoon Bondara. Your premise is totally false. Deal with it.
Prove that Starkiller was a neophyte. Hell, Darth Maul was one of the deadliest and most highly trained apprentices in Sith history, and yet even Mighella (who was weak compared to him) managed to bring him to his knees with Force lightning; even from a relatively weak opponent, it is still a powerful technique, and Kota deflected it while laughing.
Ah, yes. Well, since opinions clearly translate to fact, how about this.
Sidious rips the lightsaber out of Windu's hand and breaks his neck instantly. I win!
The movie and novelization > you.
Sidious managed to kill three of the Jedi Order's most "celebrated swordsmen" with blinding speed (the last of which he slayed while crossing blades with Windu) and drove Mace back.
Windu wasn't immersed in Vaapad; it took several seconds. How long does it take to blink your eye?
Except that it took the entire previous minutes of the fight to do it in order to compensate for the Sith Lord's superior speed, agility, and ferociousness. It isn't instant. Period.
You progress from the inability to reason to outright deception. Galen Marek was demonstrably far more powerful than Mace Windu in terms of Force mastery and was still nailed during their confrontations.
He was confronted with Vader and the narrator states that the dark side was far stronger in Vader than with Vastor and said that "even the dim-wattage Force connection" that Rostu possessed could confirm that. He's stronger. Period.
I reaffirmed the idea that you apparently lack the ability to reason and rely on deception, misdirection, and ignorance to try to further your stance. Your opinion was totally crushed and you will not waste my time with any of the aforementioned three traits again. Take your time with the next post or not at all. Raise your game or get off the court.
Registered: Sep 2008
Location: Somewhere in the galaxy
Do you know how is this called? Contradiction. I said Yoda>Marek in the force and since Marek can stop OT Sidious' lightning then Yoda can do it as well. This is my premise. You start arg against me when I said Yoda>Marek, then I ask you if you were trying to prove the other way, then you refutes it, thus implying that you as well believe that yoda>marek in the force, and now you are saying that the burden of proof is with ME when I say that Yoda can stop OT Sidious' lightning with his hands? So you are basicly saying that Yoda is stronger in the force then Marek, yet Marek can stop OT Sidious' lightning and Yoda can't... What kind of logic is this? Then I am the one who has horrendous logic... At least I don't contradict myself.
No, that's not the only justification, and you know why? Because you are using an argument that doesn't reflects the reality. Marek did stop Sidious' lightning before he entered in the oneness state, and you can see it clearly in the game cut scene, so you can't use this arg. So, what's the alternative? The alternative is that even though inferior to Sidious in the force department, Marek was still strong enough to hold his lightning with his hands.
"As Juno rescued the Senators, Starkiller confronted the Sith Lords who had been manipulating him for years. Lightsabers clashed inside the Emperor's observation dome, but Starkiller was ultimately no match for the power of Darth Sidious. Bombarded by Force lightning, Starkiller did not fight back but instead unleashed all the power of the Force within him, causing a tremendous blast that shattered the Emperor's tower and caused enough of a distraction to allow Eclipse and the Rebel Senators to escape."
This is the quote by the way, and doesn't tell us nothing new, is simply resuming what we saw in the cut scene. But that doesn't change the fact that Marek stopped OT Sidious' lightning with his hands.
As I said before, I never said he was weak.
Oh, but there are an important difference in these situations. Bail Organa doesn't have a jedi master like Mace Windu saying otherwise. So yeah, I have the choice to refute Nick's statement since there are other more credible statement how says other way.
Fair enough, I will drop this point them, even though is stupid in my opinion to believe that someone would have a significant increase in power very few months before being burned and cut alive. And I didn't fall in a gaping logic because I didn't know such statement.
As you said to me before, I reply the same to you, I don't care about your personal opinions. Do you have something to back such statement? Can you prove me that Sidious could have ended Windu with the force and didn't do it due because he was confident in his lightsaber abilities? Anyway, even though he was in an "inferior position", that position didn't exactly decreased the power of sidious' lightning, so your point is irrelevant.
Which misleading statement? I was merely pointing out that Obi-Wan's defences weren't the best at the time due to Dooku's movement. Yet as I said before, I didn't deny Dooku's obvious superiority and ownage with the force.
I will adress the 4 quotes at the same time because I did 1 arg and the fact that you split it just to try to refute it is pathetic. Yoda has FORCE-ASSISTED STRENGTH, which allowed him, for example, to carry an huge machine gun during the CW on his back, so even though Windu's physical strength is greater then yoda's one, once he is using the force to augument his physical abilites there are no such problem. So, again, what is my point? Windu at such close range stoped sidious' lightning with his lightsaber. As such, if yoda was on windu's position, he would be able to do the same, because yoda is as fast or even faster then windu (do you want me to prove this as well? god...) and has no strength problem whatsoever due to his enourmous force reserves fulling his physical body as it was prooved when he carried the machine gun for example. So, why did yoda lost his lightsaber? My alternative is that he had just landed on the pod and was not ready to face the lightning. Do you have another?
Vader specifically said to Marek "is time to face someone more powerful, a COUNCIL MEMBER", something like this. He was specifically saying that Kota was not on the level of masters of the council member, so your argument means nothing.
Simple. Few time after beat Kota, SK was owned by Shaak Ti and only an incredible rage attack made him beat her. Later he almost was killed by vader and only proxy saved him. Yet, at his full power sometime later, he was able to beat Vader. So yeah, he was definitely not at full power by the time he beat Kota. And Maul didn't exactly try to defend himself with the force from her attack, so I can even arg that Maul wanted to show her that he could endure the pain of her attack, because even if he couldn't stop her lightning with his hands, he still as his lightsaber to defend himself if he wanted.
Oh no, you lose, and you lose because I wasn't giving an opinion, I was translating what happened between Mace and Sidious, yet YOU are giving you opinion by saying that Sidious could do such thing.
Yet Depa turned into the vaadpad in a blink of an eye in Shatterpoint and Mace turned into the vaadpad in a blink of an eye when Sidious shot his lightning to him.
__________________ I have never let my schooling interfere with my education
Last edited by Darth Angel on Oct 28th, 2008 at 07:06 PM
Registered: Sep 2008
Location: Somewhere in the galaxy
Are we talking about the Marek who owned Vader or the Marek who almost lost to shaak tii? That Marek, the one who was "nailed" by Vader, didn't exactly showed a superiority to Shaak Tii, who is quite inferior to mace.
So that's a statement from Rostu's point of view. Which means my arg still stands, since Windu has far more credibility then a person with "dim-wattage force connection".
Are you blind? Read my post, you were completly owned. What did you prove? That you know how to use several fallacies in every single post? Just lol...
Anyway, as I know your pride will not allow you to drop it, I will reply to your reply on friday (I have a test thursday)
__________________ I have never let my schooling interfere with my education
Oct 27th, 2008 04:19 PM
