While Kit Fisto may not be as good Qui-Gon Jinn, he is not as much worse as Anakin is better than Padawan Obi-wan. So while Maul puts up one hell of a fight, he falls taking Fisto down with him.
That analogy could work if Darth Maul weren't more powerful than Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan combined. And you'd have to prove how AOTC Anakin > TPM Kenobi anyways.
__________________
"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent." - Sagacious Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn.
AOTC Anakin has more anger than TPM and though that lead to leaving yourself open, that's not as much of an issue in a 2 on 1 fight, as the one will have to deal with the other of the pair's attacks. Maul is stronger than Qui-Gon, but whats not to say he'd be on the brink of killing Anakin, but taunt him instead?
Okay? How is that necessarily a good thing? He's also more headstrong, foolhardy, and quite simply an idiot. He doesn't have the power/control to make up for the anger like he does in ROTS.
"We go in toge--"
"1'M T4K1N6 H1M NE00!!!!///!!!!"
*Pwned by Force lightning*
"Ahh."
And because in AOTC, we know Anakin likes to lead the offensive, that's going to be hard considering Jinn and Kenobi attacked on the offensive, and the outcome was this:
"...their efforts at attack, at assuming the offensive against this dangerous adversary, were woefully inadequate. "
Retype that sentence, I didn't quite understand what you meant. But, anyways, you'd also have to think about how well Kit Fisto and Anakin would even mesh together as a team, that's always something to consider. And given that Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan gave it their all in the opening of the fight, and it wasn't enough - I'm going to say Kit Fisto and Anakin, who aren't a coordinated duo, don't even have as much success:
"So they challenged the Sith Lord quickly, and just as quickly I discovered that their best efforts were not good enough to achieve an early resolution."
Which really wasn't a sucess at all, as you can see.
Uh, because there's no shafts for Anakin to fall down? Same reason he didn't "taunt" Qui-Gon (because Qui-Gon wasn't hanging from a shaft).
They are out front of Sir Jabba thy Hutteth, the Third's Palace. There's nothing to fall into, so we can't just ass-ume Maul will taunt Anakin or even Kit Fisto.
__________________
"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent." - Sagacious Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn.
Last edited by Advent on Aug 3rd, 2006 at 11:21 PM
Anakin would be stronger than Obi-wan with his anger, and being angry can lead to foolish mistakes, like leaving yourself open. It's less likely Maul would be able capitalize on it because he would have to deal with Fisto.
How can you say that? Maul was able to defend against two Jedi at once, and I highly doubt either Qui-Gon or Obi-Wan were leaving themselves open. If they were, they would've been killed. Notice Maul, when they are going two on one, is literally beating the brains out of both of them.
I mean, when Kenobi jumped behind him, he blocked his attack while not even looking. He jump kicked Qui-Gon while defending against both of them. He kicked Kenobi, and literally knocked him back ten feet. He pushed Qui-Gon away with just sheer Force, and did the same to Kenobi immediately after. And, gave a spin kick to Kenobi, and he fell down to a completely different platform.
Now any one of those could've been fatal if either Kenobi or Jinn left themselves open, as Anakin would do. So, what do you mean "capitalize" when he was able to capitalize on opponents that were guarding themselves, and fighting smart - not aimlessly as Anakin tends to do.
And then there's still the fact that Kit Fisto and Anakin as aren't coordinated as Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, who still failed as a team, despite working together for years. And, if you didn't notice the part of my previous post where I said this, you should check it out, because "their best efforts" weren't enough.
__________________
"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent." - Sagacious Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn.
#1. Qui Gonn sucked
#2. TPM Obiwan wasn't yet in his prime
#3. Use logical deduction to prove Maul>Kit Fisto, unless Kit Fisto>Obiwan and Qui Gonn
#4. ROTS Obiwan is in his prime, and I'd say that's when he would be able to take down Maul. I wonder if that has been done before.
Really, from the looks of it ROTS Obiwan was in his prime. Perhaps in terms of the force, it was OT Vader, but in saber abilities and mobility, it was ROTS.
Kit Fisto is a better Swordfighter than AOTC Obi-Wan, as Obi-Wan says himself in Cestus Deception. Now, I understand that Maul is better than Obi-Wan – but the fact that the novel itself states that the two were fighting evenly, if only for a little while, makes it reasonable to assume Kit will not go down without a reasonable fight.
Not to mention, the main reason Obi-Wan was able to keep up with Maul for the majority of the time was due to his speed. Kit is quite obviously faster and more flexible than TPM Obi-Wan, which thus gives all the more reason why he should, again, be able to put up a reasonable fight.
Might I also add that Kit’s form was described to be “aggressive” and “unpredictable” in CD – when Obi-Wan engaged Maul in anger, having just witnessed his Master’s death, Maul was barely able to keep up with him. So, how would someone, a master of a form in which is described to be “aggressive”, go against Maul given the fact that Obi-Wan forced Maul back when he himself became “aggressive”? (If I don’t make sense here than just ignore the whole thing)
In ROTS, Kit seemed to do a fair job at keeping up with Mace’s Vaapad. If he can keep up, If only for a few seconds, with a Vaapad master, I see no reason why he’d fail at remaining “coordinated” with Anakin.
Therefore, If the two fought at their best, and Anakin didn’t try any funny business, I could see Kit and Anni winning.
Registered: Sep 2005
Location: Picking up some power converters.
Maul.
Maul was able to almost overwhelm Sidious, who, if I remember correctly, punked Fisto in about three seconds.
Also, Maul has a definite terrain advantage. Being Maul, he won't get tired... Maul>Fatigue.
Kit, however, while he seemed to do okay on Geonisis, is still a fish-man. After the constant beating Maul will give him, he'll get tired (like Qui Gon did), and dry out possibly. Qui Gon was described as the best duelist Obi Wan had ever seen and, also, on par with Mace Windu. Still, Maul showed him a thrashing.
Also, Maul is great at fighting multiple targets, as seen in TPM, those four comics, and possibly Shadow Hunter (I haven't read it yet, I'm not sure I will). Also, Kit Fisto and Anakin have no previous track record, and it is very likely that they couldn't coordinate their attacks at all, nevermind as well as Obi Wan and Qui Gon.
A few last things(my opinions):
Qui Gon> Kit.
Obi Wan is about equal to Anakin, I mean, he was just days away from being a Knight during him TPM days.
Obi Wan and Qui Gon's synergy >>> Kit and Anakins' synergy.
[RX-127]: What is your primary objective?
[ADV-12-VENT]: Destroy all Kit Fisto Fanboys.
Actually, what the hell does that have to do with anything? Qui-Gon Jinn > AOTC Obi-Wan.
Kit Fisto isn't on par with Qui-Gon Jinn. So yes, he'll put up less of a fight than Jinn, but sadly it will not be good enough.
Wrong again, Meddie-boy.
" He struck at the Sith Lord with his lightsaber as if his own safety meant nothing, lost in a red haze of rage and frustration, consumed by his grief for Qui-Gon and his failure to prevent his friend's fall. The Sith Lord was borne backward by the Jedi Knight's initial rush, caught off guard by the other's wild assault, " - From the TPM novelization.
"The dark warrior, Darth Maul, used his incredible speed, rage and his double-ended lightsaber to fend off both Jedi. " - from the databank.
Now, as you can see it was Darth Maul's speed that kept Obi-Wan and Jinn away. And Kenobi was only able to keep up because Maul didn't expect Obi-Wan to give into his anger, and attack like a mad man - the novel makes that clear. I doubt Kit Fisto will give into his anger (i.e. the Dark side) to attack Maul.
So, if you're done making shit up, we'll move on.
And Darth Maul is faster, more flexible than TPM Obi-Wan as well. Your point? Again, he won't put up as good of a fight as Qui-Gon, but sure he'll put up a nice fight, and die trying.
First, give me the exact quote. Second, in the actual script and novelization "QUI-GON is in a split second fighting the DARK LORD with a ferocity not seen before.", and the novel confirms it. Qui-Gon was fighting aggressively, very aggresively, hence "ferocity not seen before". Sadly, the outcome as you know was Qui-Gon slumping across the floor in a heap.
More bullshit?
(please log in to view the image)
Fair job my ass. He was only lucky that Sidious went to Agen and Saesee first. "Keeping up" would've included at least making it past where Agen and Saesee died, or hell even just moving away from that area.
Dude, you're an idiot. He didn't keep up with him, and that's no reason to believe he'd be coordinated with Anakin. He's never worked with Anakin, Anakin is also headstrong and foolhardy, and there's no reason to believe they will:
a.) Make a more coordinated duo than Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon, who had been working together for years.
b.) Even be a coordinated duo.
With that said, Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan's best attacks were futile against Darth Maul:
"So they challenged the Sith Lord quickly, and just as quickly I discovered that their best efforts were not good enough to achieve an early resolution."
This gives me reason to believe that neither will Kit Fisto nor Anakin be able to do even close to as good of a job, given we know they aren't coordinated (and they aren't, quite making shit up), and adding to the fact a stronger duo's best efforts weren't enough, so why would Fisto and Anakin's?
We bring up the fact that Anakin is a foolhardy, headstrong, and quite simply an idiot. We know because of this, he'll often leave himself open to an attack, which means that Maul will probably be able to off him quite easily given this:
"His agility and dexterity allowed him to keep them both at bay, constantly attacking while at the same time effectively blocking their counterattacks, relentlessly searching for an opening in their defense."
Now, since he was "constantly attacking" and "[effectively] blocking their counterattacks", it's reasonable to believe if he finds that opening in Anakin, which he will if Anakin goes crazy as he probably will, he'll take it at the first opportunity.
Of course you could see them winning, because it's got "Kit Fisto" in the winner's spot. However, that will not happen. Maul wins.
Excellent job as usual, jollyjim, I must say. I was going to bring up the Sidious thing, but I forget what it happened in - do you know?
__________________
"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent." - Sagacious Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn.
Last edited by Advent on Aug 4th, 2006 at 06:51 PM
Actually, Qui-Gon was a far better fighter than Obi-Wan in TPM even. How can you say that? He caught Maul off guard by attacking like a madman a la ROTJ Luke (novel/script/even movie confirms that), just because he broke Maul's saber in half doesn't mean he's better than Qui-Gon. And that is really all he did. He got overpowered in the saber lock, Maul - after Obi-Wan's initial attack - was regaining the advantage, and so on.
__________________
"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent." - Sagacious Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn.
Actually, what the hell does that have to do with anything? Qui-Gon Jinn > AOTC Obi-Wan.
Obi-Wan managed to defend himself from Maul for the majority of their duel. The fact that Kit is better than AOTC Obi-Wan, who is ultimately far greater than TPM Obi-Wan, means that Kit should be able to defend himself from Maul for a decent amount of time. Nay?
Wrong again, Meddie-boy.
In the novel, it states that because Obi-Wan was quicker than Qui-Gon, he was able to “elude his antagonist’s efforts”. Hence, in a sense, it was Obi-Wan’s speed that helped him out for the majority of the duel.
He struck at the Sith Lord with his lightsaber as if his own safety meant nothing, lost in a red haze of rage and frustration, consumed by his grief for Qui-Gon and his failure to prevent his friend's fall. The Sith Lord was borne backward by the Jedi Knight's initial rush, caught off guard by the other's wild assault, " - From the TPM novelization.
It also mentions Darth Maul struggling to keep Kenobi at bay – a Sith Lord, who uses anger as his “ally”, struggling to defend himself from a Jedi, someone who rarely uses their anger to aid them in a duel, who had just become slightly aggressive.
Now, as you can see it was Darth Maul's speed that kept Obi-Wan and Jinn away. And Kenobi was only able to keep up because Maul didn't expect Obi-Wan to give into his anger, and attack like a mad man - the novel makes that clear. I doubt Kit Fisto will give into his anger (i.e. the Dark side) to attack Maul.
And then, when Maul finally did regain the offensive, Obi-Wan managed to “elude his antagonists efforts” due to his speed. After Obi-Wan’s anger driven assault, Maul does not regain the upper-hand until later on.
First, give me the exact quote.
I’ll give you a few
“Obi-Wan swiftly discovered that Kit was the better swordfighter, astonishingly aggressive and intuitive”
“Form I was wild, raw… and deadly. It also required too much emotional heat for Obi-Wan’s taste.
“Kit favored the Form I style of combat, a fierce—“ and then it just kinda cuts off, because Obi-Wan just realized that the JK droid Kit was fighting could actually think for itself.
“Kit’s emerald blade was here, there, everywhere: unpredictable, irresistible”
“Kit accelerated into a blur of motion complex and rapid enough to baffle even Obi-Wan’s experienced gaze.”
“The Nautolan’s sense of timing faster and more precise than conscious thought”
Second, in the actual script and novelization "QUI-GON is in a split second fighting the DARK LORD with a ferocity not seen before.", and the novel confirms it.
Are you sure? Unless I’m missing something, in the novel it reads.. “and now he was attacking with a ferocity that seemed to have the Sith Lord stymied”. I can’t find where it states, “with a ferocity not seen before.” Unless that is what you meant…
Qui-Gon was fighting aggressively, very aggresively, hence "ferocity not seen before". Sadly, the outcome as you know was Qui-Gon slumping across the floor in a heap.
Again, I can’t find where it says “ferocity not seen before”. But I agree that Qui-Gon was fighting very ferociously indeed.
Fair job my ass. He was only lucky that Sidious went to Agen and Saesee first. "Keeping up" would've included at least making it past where Agen and Saesee died, or hell even just moving away from that area.
I wish people saw that scene through my eyes. If you watch closely, Kit actually manages to slide himself behind Sidious, in conjunction with Mace’s attack, to deliver what he thought would be the finishing blow. From what we saw, Kit seemed to remain co-ordinated with Mace fairly well (Especially evident as they attack Sidious both at the same time).
Dude, you're an idiot. He didn't keep up with him, and that's no reason to believe he'd be coordinated with Anakin. He's never worked with Anakin, Anakin is also headstrong and foolhardy, and there's no reason to believe they will:
But he DID keep up with Mace for the 2 seconds in which he was dueling Sidious! Considering that Kit and Mace had never dueled someone together before (or have they?), I thought that they seemed to do a fairly good job at remaining co-ordinated. They were fighting together so symbolically, that when Kit was suddenly slashed across the waist, I almost died of shock!
a.) Make a more coordinated duo than Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon, who had been working together for years.
b.) Even be a coordinated duo.
True, but that is no reason to assume that they will fail at remaining coordinated.
"So they challenged the Sith Lord quickly, and just as quickly I discovered that their best efforts were not good enough to achieve an early resolution."
This gives me reason to believe that neither will Kit Fisto nor Anakin be able to do even close to as good of a job, given we know they aren't coordinated (and they aren't, quite making shit up), and adding to the fact a stronger duo's best efforts weren't enough, so why would Fisto and Anakin's?
I will believe that Anakin and Kit are uncoordinated together when I have seen proof!
Kit Fisto is a Jedi Master. Obi-Wan was a padawan. Anakin did a better job against Dooku than his Master (I suppose that's arguable though). Anakin isn’t that terrible!
I see no reason why this could not turn out either way.
We bring up the fact that Anakin is a foolhardy, headstrong, and quite simply an idiot. We know because of this, he'll often leave himself open to an attack, which means that Maul will probably be able to off him quite easily given this:
As someone said earlier, that isn’t necessarily too much of an issue in a 2 on 1 fight – chances are Darth Maul will be too distracted with Kit to be able to find an opening in Anakin anyways.
Of course you could see them winning, because it's got "Kit Fisto" in the winner's spot. However, that will not happen. Maul wins.
Nay! I refuse to believe this! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!
No, he didn't. Because he didn't get killed, he kept up with Maul? Lawls. Let's do a recapulation on the two on one:
- Blocked Kenobi's attack while not even looking.
- Jump kicked Qui-Gon while defending against Obi-Wan.
- Kicked Kenobi and knocked him back ten feet (so much he had to run to catch up).
- Pushed Qui-Gon away with just sheer Force.
- Did the same to Kenobi.
- Spin kicked Kenobi and he fell down to a completely different platform.
"their efforts at attack, at assuming the offensive against this dangerous adversary, were woefully inadequate. "
Now, how is it that a superior duo's attacks were useless, and they were getting pwned, but he can't do it to Kit Fisto and Anakin? Remember, this isn't a one on one, so stop treating it like it is.
We're not arguing about AOTC Obi-Wan, or TPM Obi-Wan for Kit. Kit Fisto would be the Qui-Gon of the match, and Anakin would be the Kenobi.
So, I don't see how it's relevant that he's superior to TPM Obi-Wan, when he's not superior than Qui-Gon, and AOTC Anakin is at the most equal to TPM Kenobi, though, I'd argue TPM Obi-Wan > AOTC Anakin. Adding to the fact that Qui-Gon Jinn > Kit Fisto.
It says quote exactly, "Anticipating each blow, he was able to elude his antagonist's efforts to bring him down."
This was only because he was attacking like a madman.
You're a L-I-A-R. He didn't become "slightly aggressive", and I quote from the novelization:
"The Sith Lord was borne backward by the Jedi Knight's initial rush, caught off guard by the other's wild assault,"
He was surprised Obi-Wan would tap into his anger, and use it fully, but as you will see two quotes down, he regained composure.
"He struck at the Sith Lord with his lightsaber as if his own safety meant nothing, lost in a red haze of rage and frustration, consumed by his grief for Qui-Gon and his failure to prevent his friend's fall. "
Seems "slightly aggressive" is bullshit, he didn't even care about himself, he was furiated, and was attacking wildly.
And, you'll notice this:
"But Darth Maul was the stronger of the two and was driven by a frenzy that surpassed even the frantic determination that fueled Obi-Wan. Eventually, the Sith Lord began to wear the young Jedi down. Bit by bit, he pressed him back, carrying the attack to him, looking to catch him off guard."
Hm, it seems as if Obi-Wan was going all out crazy during the fight, and once Maul tapped into his true hatred, he "began to wear the young Jedi down".
^
"Slightly aggressive"? Try attacking like a madman. Quit making shit up.
Maul regained control as soon as Obi-Wan breaks his lightsaber in half.
And I'll just meet this with my own quote. "But on this day, he had met his match. The Sith Lord he battled with Obi - Wan was more than his equal in weapons training, and he had the advantage of being younger and stronger."
Anyways, what does Fisto being aggressive have to do with anything? Qui-Gon was aggressive, it didn't save him, now did it?
Forms now? Lol. He uses freaking Form I. Younglings know Form I. Darth Maul uses Juyo, which is highly more effective.
"A fierce" what? Either way, this matters not. Actually, none of this matters at all. Qui-Gon in the actual final draft of the script is described as this exactly:
"When the wall between QUI-GON and DARTH MAUL opens, QUI-GON is in a
split second fighting the DARK LORD with a ferocity not seen before."
Your point? And in the actual novel, he's described as:
"He had found a fresh reserve of strength during his meditation, and now he was attacking with a ferocity that seemed to have the Sith Lord stymied. "
Hyperbolic description. Kit's blade was predicted by Darth Sidious, and it was resisted by Darth Sidious as well. Nevertheless, that's irrelevant - it's hyperbole.
Sense of timing? Lol. Didn't we already have this debate in which I handed you your ass?
(please log in to view the image)
Obviously not good enough, Kit, because guess what? You're dead.
FINAL DRAFT of the script:
"When the wall between QUI-GON and DARTH MAUL opens, QUI-GON is in a
split second fighting the DARK LORD with a ferocity not seen before."
Your point? And in the actual novel, he's described as:
"He had found a fresh reserve of strength during his meditation, and now he was attacking with a ferocity that seemed to have the Sith Lord stymied. "
"When the wall between QUI-GON and DARTH MAUL opens, QUI-GON is in a
split second fighting the DARK LORD with a ferocity not seen before."
Your point? And in the actual novel, he's described as:
"He had found a fresh reserve of strength during his meditation, and now he was attacking with a ferocity that seemed to have the Sith Lord stymied. "
If we saw anything through your eyes, it'd probably be a Kit Fisto porno.
So, because Saesee and Agen died first, and Kit managed to clash sabers with Sidious once, he's coordinated with Mace Windu? And how did he "seem to remain coordinated fairly well". HE DIED IN THE FIRST THREE SECONDS.
Dueling Sidious? I don't call clashing blades one time "dueling". It was a slaughter. And you're saying he kept up with Mace for 2 seconds? Uh, buddy, those 2 seconds were where Agen and Saesee died.
Two seconds and you say he's z0mg coordinated, and so he'll be coordinated with Anakin? This has to be a joke.
What the f*ck are you talking about? They fought together for two seconds! And they didn't do a "fairly good job", as Kit Fisto didn't even move from where they started fighting.
Yes, there is.
1.) Kit Fisto has never worked with Anakin.
2.) Anakin is foolhardy, headstrong, and an idiot.
3.) Anakin wouldn't even listen to his own master.
4.) Anakin wasn't even coordinated with his own master.
Now, tell me why Kit Fisto and Anakin will mesh good together? You can't? Thought so.
Just because he lasted two seconds against Sidious (lol) doesn't mean he "coordinated" with Mace, or even that he will with Anakin.
__________________
"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent." - Sagacious Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn.
Last edited by Advent on Aug 5th, 2006 at 03:14 AM
Aug 3rd, 2006 10:44 PM
