I was thinking today (a rare occurrence, to be sure) about indoctrination. As I examined the idea, a single question kept coming to me:
“Why are some forms of indoctrination considered acceptable while others are not?”
Now, allow me to state that I do not want to turn this into a religion vs. secularism thread. However, the film Jesus Camp was a mainstay of this train of thought, so it will deal with religious and secular aspects. I do not want this to turn into a point-by-point nitpicking fest, and I do not want this to be a “Jesus Camp thread.”
I saw some of the “most powerful” clips on YouTube about the film, and I was struck by the comments. Almost all of them were about how the practices of the film were “dangerous,” “abusive,” or “wrong.”
What I don’t think people realize is that there is a more powerful form of indoctrination that is taking place at all times: mainstream culture. Schools and colleges, the media, society as a whole echo certain beliefs and value systems that we are supposed to believe, that are right for whatever reason. I’ll compare a few of them—and, again, I don’t want this to turn into a religion vs. secularism thread. (Note that when I say “Jesus Camp” in the section below, I’m taking the stereotypical evangelical Christian viewpoint. When I say “society,” I am taking the stereotypical viewpoint of mainstream culture.)
Society: “Don’t believe anything without proof.” Jesus Camp: “Faith is a virtue; trust in God.”
Society: “Homosexuality is an acceptable lifestyle. Those who are against same-sex marriage are homophobic; those who think that homosexuality is wrong are intolerant and hateful.” Jesus Camp: “Homosexuality is not an acceptable lifestyle. It is impure in the eyes of God. We will not be afraid to speak the truth.”
Society: “Premarital sex is fine. Teenagers are expected to experiment sexually, and oral sex in adolescents is a healthy choice because it prevents unwanted pregnancy.” Jesus Camp: “People should wait until marriage to have sex. Control your urges; stay sexually pure.”
Society: “Owning pornographic material is natural and acceptable.” Jesus Camp: “Pornography is a perversion of sexuality. Owning it is morally wrong.”
Society: “All religious beliefs are equal. Don’t tell other people how to live their lives; proselytizing is obnoxious.” Jesus Camp: “‘I am the Way, the Truth, and the Light. No one comes to the Father except through Me.’ We will spread the Good News so that others might be saved.”
Society: “Wealth and material possessions are measures of success.” Jesus Camp: “Don’t concern yourselves with such things. Store up treasure in heaven instead.”
Society: “Let your children decide what they believe.” Jesus Camp: “Raise child in the ways of the Lord.”
Furthermore, society espouses the following (with “Jesus Camp” not necessarily being opposed):
--Logic and reason are virtues.
--Intolerance and hate are wrong.
--Be accepting and tolerant of everyone.
--Oppression is wrong.
Now, what makes these values inherently “right” while others—those that don’t align with society’s—are inherently “wrong”?
Nothing, I declare, save for the indoctrination of generation after generation that tells us what we ought to believe. Why is intolerance wrong—because it might hurt someone’s feelings? Why is oppression wrong—because some people don’t like it? Why are logic and reason so elevated—because they help us figure things out?
None of these demonstrate a strong reason for why society’s indoctrination is acceptable while other forms of indoctrination—those condemned by society for being “indoctrination”—are unacceptable. Except, of course, that they don’t conform to society’s standards.
Now that’s just intolerant.
__________________ Ask me about my "obvious and unpleasant agenda of hatred."
im not sure where you're going with this, but your entries for 'society' appear to be a straw man. if you're implying that 'jesus camp' can be used as a straw man for christianity, well you're correct. apart from that its just straw man vs. straw man. clash of the titans
__________________
"Sell crazy someplace else. We're all stocked up here."
Like I said, they're stereotypical. I'm not trying to make them into straw men, but that's how they seem to be to me. Do you think that there is a better way to phrase them?
__________________ Ask me about my "obvious and unpleasant agenda of hatred."
if your argument is stereotypical society (of which i disagree) vs. the jesus camp wackos, then you're pitting an actual religious sect, doccumented on its unorthodox (and often times psychologically abusive toward their children) methods of practicing faith vs. a strawman of what society is.
if your argument is stereotypical society vs. stereotypical christians, than its no more rooted in reality than hulk vs. superman.
__________________
"Sell crazy someplace else. We're all stocked up here."
If you don't want this to turn into a religion v. secularism thread, then don't make it one from the beginning. Why do the rest of us have to address this in the broad, cerebral sense, but you don't? All of your examples, every one of them, are meant to incite people to defend one position over the other. I understand that the thread would have brought all those points up eventually, but that's no reason to break your own rules.
Or, as many have said, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". It's pretty simple. In fact, it's down right religious in it's simplicity. Why would an American Christian that has been educated in their own religion willingly walk into a voting booth and cast a ballot that will enact legislation that treats any one segment of society like second-class citizens? Why would any one who enjoys the "freedoms and privilege" of being an American citizen, for any reason, vote to take away the rights of another? It isn't "society's indoctrination" that has taught me how willing they are to do so, it's their own words and actions.
Again, you seek to seperate Christians from the rest of society. They are a part of society, not its opposite. This is the problem with most overtly-religious people. They seperate themselves from society and then wonder why they get crucified for telling everyone else what their values should be and what true virtue is. I'm a Christian. Then I'm an American. Then I'm a human being. If society as a whole wanted nothing to do with Christianity, it would have gone the way of the DoDo by now. But it hasn't. [sarcasm]That's because society still has one or two christians lying around.[sarcasm]
What always strikes me is that middle-path Christians are treated like traitors by other, more extreme, Christians. If a christian professed to believe that abortion should be legal or gay marriage a good thing, they're treated like traitors. Or worse, they're not even heard from at all! So, if "society" is intolerant of the "Jesus Camp" crowd, then why is the "Jesus camp" crowd intolerant of it's own members that disagree with their beliefs?
This strikes me over and over again like it's a thread on the "liberal media". Well, there's no such thing. There's only people in the media who report on an issue as they see it. Be that through their political beliefs or religious beliefs or their secularist beliefs.
I don't know if the inequity of how you view the "wounded-Christian" mindset v. every other group that feels marginalized by society is responsible for your opinions, but I'd sure like to know. Society has more tolerance for a Christian man in a navy blazer than they do for a Muslim woman in a hijab or a transvestite in heels, so don't play the oppressed Christian and then ask "why is one brainwashing better than another". Not in this country. Not in America. Especially when one group (Jesus Camp) feels they are America.
__________________ "If I were you"
"If you were me, you'd know the safest place to hide...is in sanity!
Last edited by Devil King on Oct 9th, 2007 at 06:56 PM
It seemed to me to be the most convenient example. I suppose that, if I could edit my post, I could change some to stuff from Stormfront.org.
Because black people are the descendents of Ham and thus are cursed to be slaves. Obviously.
Christians are supposed to be separate from society, though.
Because the "Jesus Camp" crowd doesn't talk about tolerance among Christians as a main virtue? Paul writes a strong rebuke in 1 Corinthians 5, telling one church to order a member of their congregation either to straighten up or GTFO.
Would you or would you not say that mainstream culture is accurately portrayed by my statements?
Considering I wasn't QQing about oppression, your point is moot. I asked why some forms of indoctrination are considered acceptable while others are not.
__________________ Ask me about my "obvious and unpleasant agenda of hatred."
Re: Re: Re: (Un)Acceptable Forms of Indoctrination
And if you were to change your post, it would illustrate my point. Like it or not, the members of Stormfront are just as much a part of society as are Christians.
No, it's obvious that Christians feel their faith gives them the right to act superior.
Yes, seperate from society in their actions and beliefs. But that's assuming that Christians are the only one with standards and morals. This simply isn't the case. Your examples speak towards this better than I can.
And I said "christians who are educated in their own faith". How fortunate for Christianity that Paul isn't the only person who wrote on the subject of tolerance.
Sure, in a lot of ways. But as I said, Christians don't have to posses a contrary opinion to popular culture.
I was editing my post while you typed this response, so it's a non-issue. But the point is that you are drawing a comparrison between one group's methods and another's. That is a moot point. Christians are a part of society, not it's opposite.
__________________ "If I were you"
"If you were me, you'd know the safest place to hide...is in sanity!
Last edited by Devil King on Oct 9th, 2007 at 07:13 PM
Re: Re: Re: Re: (Un)Acceptable Forms of Indoctrination
When one ignores the muddled morality that is pushed upon us and turns to the clarity of absolutism, it gives one the right to safeguard and enforce the morality of those absolutes. Anything less would be doing a disservice to humanity.
But you would undoubtedly argue that the society examples do not show a lack of morals and standards but different morals and standards.
Why?
In many ways they are called to do so.
__________________ Ask me about my "obvious and unpleasant agenda of hatred."
i just feel that putting children in the state of mortal terror as part of a religious ceremony is abusive, and that child abuse is universally regarded as immoral. this applies to the jesus camp flick of course. growing up catholic, i was put in the state of fear and guilt, but it was more of a general sense. it was like "you lead a bad life and you'll go to hell and suffer forever and ever" as opposed to "you read a harry potter book and you're gonna die....right...NOW!!!!....or maybe....right.....NOW!!!". so while the fear was present, it wasnt like i was shocked into a state of terror and broken down completely for brainwashing.
__________________
"Sell crazy someplace else. We're all stocked up here."
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: (Un)Acceptable Forms of Indoctrination
How George W. Bush of you. As Ghandi said: Convictions should be slow to form, but once formed, they must be defended at all costs. Remember that a large number of these "Christians" of whom you speak are, as you said, indoctrinated. The whole point of your thread is to discuss (or illustrate) how one form of indoctrination is the result of another (or is somehow better?). You think you have absolute certainty in your beliefs, but so do others. And you've made the mistake of lumping the many groups into two: Christians and everyone else.
You asked in the opening post why it's right for "society" to say "Children should be allowed to form their own opinions and convictions.", while the opposite is true as well for Christians? Well, sorry, but making up your own mind is superior to being told from the age of 3 that Santa Claus is floating in the sky, watching everything you're doing, and that if you don't believe it, totally, that you're going to burn in hell for all eternity. Besides, if it's an absolute that Christianity is the best path, then they'll figure that out. Unless you think coming to the same conclusions you have is impossible for another independant, intelligent human being.
Different, yes. Better? Maybe. But I don't need everyone to agree with me to make me feel better about my beliefs or morals. Remember, you are arguing that different morals equate to inferior morals. No one says Christians can't express their faith or believe in what they will. But any number of popular Christian personalities would condemn someone who understands it's just as much their right to do so, as it is the Christians.
Because for someone who suffered persecution, he wasn't awfully understanding. Again, speaking from a position of certainty doesn't make him right.
This isn't the Roman Empire. For lack of a better term, Christianity is the state faith of the United States of America. And certainly no Christian has a problem with this notion, despite the rule of law we're supposed to enjoy in this country.
__________________ "If I were you"
"If you were me, you'd know the safest place to hide...is in sanity!
Last edited by Devil King on Oct 9th, 2007 at 08:30 PM
Zeal Ex Nihilo... I think it's great you have something to believe in, I really do, but how could you not see that the practices in Jesus Camp would screw a kid up in two seconds? It's a form of brainwashing.
Don't kid yourself, you're obviously biased. If you saw people speaking in tongues and brainwashing sobbing children, and it was in the name of a different religion, you would be offended as well.
Also, it matter not what the bible says, I'm afraid. You list all the nice things that the bibles says, but how many devout American Chrisitans actually practice these? For many it doesn't stop with just "Homosexuality is not an acceptable lifestyle. It is impure in the eyes of God. We will not be afraid to speak the truth." It goes on with picketting, harrassment, and sometimes violence. Where is "Do unto others" while this is happening?
Sorry dude, but Christianity is far too flawed of a religion to be held so highly.
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Oct 9th, 2007 02:31 PM
