Luke wins. This would be similar to a footrace between the Flash(DC) and Jabbe the Hutt.
__________________ "You must begin by gaining power over yourself; then another; then a group, an order, a world, a species, a group of species... finally, the galaxy itself."
- Darth Plagueis
"She may be small but she packs a punch and when shes in this mood...she goes for my danglers" - Oghren, Dragon Age
__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
I know it's a popular brain bug to say that around here with anything KotoR related, but honestly there's a fair amount of info from cut scenes and such.
It's not even like Revan and the Exile where their capabilities are vague due to having to be customizable. Traya, we know, has killed Jedi Masters who have in turn shown up in other material. Known kills of known characters with known means.
known characters? I personally have no idea the skills of any of the jedi that she killed. Can you enlighten me? I know they are pretty good talkers, but I have no idea their combat ability.
One of 'em, Vrook, was the Jedi Master and council member who lead the assault on the Draay estate in the KotoR comics. He and the two others also were planning to strip the Exile of her connection to the force permanently, which requires a fair amount of force mastery.
But they could've been base apprentices, or three complete no-name masters, and it'd still be a feat to force-drain them to death. Traya was a major character in a fairly long game which includes a lot of background information. We have plenty of info on fights and feats around that time.
A character being from KotoR games =/= 'no info'.
Wanna argue shaky/limited info? Sure. But we don't have 'nothing,' we have the KotoR games and in some cases comics.
True, but it does = 'unquantifiable'. Unless you're Nihilus. Kinda.
The comics aren't that spectacular at detailing combat ability. Their visual aids, sure, but being comics they're also exaggerated, and story driven.
__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
We do know it's something that is rare in any era, suggesting significant force mastery is needed.
I can quantify it, "at least enough to take down three random Jedi masters, one a council member." We have a general idea of how strong Jedi masters are, so
It's not precise, but it is quantifiable to an approximate amount.
We also have her relationships with many other characters, like that she trained both Sion and Nihilus, and that they felt the need to team up to take her down (at least barring Nihilus using his force-eat power). If you have a web of dozens characters who all interact with each other, you get an idea of how they relate to each other in ability. If you have a bunch of people who can be judged approximate to each other, then that gives basis to start judging them against other groups too, especially when there are a few who interact with those from other eras (Celeste Morne most obviously).
Equal or less than a lot of other EU stuff, like NJO. The DH comics in the last few years (ever since Republic) tend to be fairly down-to-Earth and in line with the movies.
If we discount them on that, we'd have to discount the EU in general.
Talented use of a technique is not indicative of power level or strength. How does Kreia's Force push hold up against Kenobi's? What's her saber style? What's her specific mentality? How much is too much for her? What's her limits? Specifically.
This isn't quantifying her abilities, it's summarizing what she did. I can do the exact same thing about the Care Bears. There is nothing specific about the power behind anybody's attacks. We have no narrative, no canon commentary, no detailed description of what they canonically can do how well they can do in given circumstances. EVERYTHING is conjecture with these guys. The only person who might have something to their name is Nihilus and his dubious pulling of the Ravager from Malachor's gravity well. But given the information comes from a loading screen and an in-universe character, it's not all too solid.
Hence the trick of trying find the right path. But at least for all the characters concerned in those, we can measure their strengths. For the KotOR guys, we can only discuss that they did stuff, not how.
__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
That it's enough to kill doesn't tell you anything? it tells you that it's at least enough to do that.
She does stuff that has X effect. X is your low-end quantity.
Also it's quite possible to quantify the Care Bears...
It's not as easy to do as a comic or novel, but it sounds to me like you posters around here just aren't used to working with figuring out approximate ranges from this stuff and/or used to dealing with games rather than actually lacking info.
Sure we do.
KotoR games are full of narrative and are canon. We see how they do in various circumstances; sure, you can't count game play stuff, but you can count the scripted stuff.
And scripted events and the actions within them. That's not conjecture, that's something a SW author wrote down of them doing stuff.
And knowing that they did X or Y tells us that they can do them and have enough strength to do those things.
Plus as we actually see some of those events in the game.
Just because it's not in a book doesn't make it not count, not wanting to count game feats isn't the same thing as not having information in them.
Well, I'm not going to continue on, this is just the debater in me running into something that bugs me The information's there and it's a valid source if someone ever does want to dig through it and quantify stuff for the people here.
So if I tell you that Obi-Wan beat Maul, then Obi-Wan has the strength to beat him, but is he better? If I tell you that a skinny 16 year old fought and beat some professional boxer, wouldn't it be important to know how he did it?
__________________ Imagination is more important than knowledge.
Kreia attacks with X powered up until____. Can her X at lvl.____ break Kenobi's defense of Y?
I'm serious, answer that. Can Kreia's Force TK break through Kenobi's mental defenses ala Dooku, and how easily? Don't give me your opinion or what you "feel" it "looked" like that she "likely" had. Give me facts.
The last part of that sentence is confusing, but whatever...
We here (what remains of us), are used to using measurable facts. Not speculative facts.
No, there is no narrative. There is no omniscient author describing to us the story's events and the characters' abilities, mentalities, follies, thoughts, skills, etc. We're given in-universe characters to opine on themselves and their surroundings. In-universe talk<<<omniscient narrator/author/George Lucas.
Strength enough to defeat/withstand/stand up to other era characters? Vader and Kenobi match each others' Force push. Will Mical's Force push stymie Kenobi's? Will Galen Marek's skill be enough to counter Malak's Force Lightning?
Again, I'm serious. Answer those question. USING FACTS.
You're right, we do. We see the Leviathon bomb Taris. We KNOW that those lasers, from that year, from that ship, can do THIS to THAT building.
We see Kreia drain three Jedi Masters. We KNOW that SHE can drain THOSE masters. Can she do the exact same thing to Mace Windu, or Ki-Adi-Mundi? If she can, answer how. If she can't, answer why not.
We KNOW that Revan can Force Choke a Republic officer. Can his Force choke incapacitate Kyp Durron?
We KNOW that Revan and Malak defeated a Rakatan droid. Will their combined power be enough to defeat DE Luke and Darth Caedus?
Again, I'm serious. Answer those, using facts.
Truth.
No, the information is there and provides the potential for valid statistics to be formed.
We know a whole shitload of "whats" in KotOR, and no "hows". Unfortunately for you, we're stodgy, cranky people who need sources and stats and feats and quantifiable evidence. We need "hows". If you can provide them, by all means...
__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
Last edited by Lord Lucien on Sep 5th, 2010 at 10:59 PM
Sep 3rd, 2010 04:11 PM
The information's there and it's a valid source if someone ever does want to dig through it and quantify stuff for the people here.
