Adult Franklin Richards(at full strength) takes on the Dreaming Celestial , within the Heroes Reborn Universe .
This is pre-Ascension Tiamut , prior to his imprisonment .
Battle is to death . BFR is irrelevant in this fight .
Keep in mind that Arishem was called the most powerful of the Celestials in Thor 300. Tiamut beat that @$$. It took the rest of the Second Host jumping in to save Arishem.
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..even the outer hells are indifferent matters for they bow only to potent and archaic Nodens.
Imo, if you pitted Franklin against just Arishem, Franklin would come out on top--as was the case with Tiamut. Conversely, I feel that if you pitted Franklin against multiple Celestials immediately afterward, the Celestials would come out on top--as was [also] the case with Tiamut. I understand that Frank destroyed 'alternate' Celestials, but there was no indication that they were much weaker than 'mainstream' Celestials (if at all.) Furthermore, Galactus felt the need to drastically amp his personal power to combat them--something that, to my knowledge, he's only attempted one other time, and that was during the original Secret Wars when he planned on absorbing Taa II in hopes of boosting his power enough to combat Beyonder... Point: the Mad Celestials must have been enormously powerful for Galactus to feel the need to amp himself so greatly before fighting them.
That being said, it's hard for me to say who wins here. It certainly wouldn't be a stomp either way, though.
I'm leaning towards Tiamut, however I can't help wondering about what Tiamut said, that a Celestial could not be killed (which Franklin obviously could) so while Tiamut is powerful he didn't have the power to kill a Celestial something that Franklin demonstrated as having the power to do. I'm not sure what to put into this or to simply disregard it.
People are forgetting those were ALT reality Celestials Franklin and Galactus fought. 616 Tiamut was talking about 616 Celestials. Case in point, when Thanos with the HotU killed a Celestial, Galactus was shocked.
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..even the outer hells are indifferent matters for they bow only to potent and archaic Nodens.
^ Eh, no one 'forgot' that. Quite the opposite, in fact.
Anyway... We can't assume that the Mad Celestials were 'killed' just because Frank/Galactus destroyed their physical bodies. After all, even when Sue disintegrated Exitar ftw, it was stated that he would still be able to reform eventually... And considering the damage Frank/Galactus caused to most of the Celestials wasn't nearly as 'complete' as the atomization attack Sue wrought to Exitar in F4 #400, it's logical to assume that they might also be able to reform over time. Point being: Celestials can be beaten/incapacitated (as Sue, Frank, Galactus, and other Celestials have proven)--but they're notoriously difficult to *permanently* kill/destroy. In fact, I'm pretty sure that Thanos /w/ THOTI (and possibly Doom /w/ IG+SW Beyonder's powers), are the only characters to ever perma-kill a Celestial on panel... In any continuity.
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Last edited by Galan007 on Jul 17th, 2012 at 07:30 AM
Tiamut didn't show the capacity to damage his fellow Celestials. After his fight with Arishem the armor of Arishem was still intact. I know it's probably not important in the fight seen as Franklin is not a Celestial in the strict sense, I just think that in terms of pure powerlevel it's food for thought that Franklin was capable of accomplish something that Tiamut could not, which was to destroy/kill the physical shells of the Celestials. Tiamut still held his own against more Celestials then Franklin could have so I'm still giving the win to Tiamut.
Maybe that could be because Timaut faced more Celestials than Franklin and Galactus did , due to which he couldn't hope to expend more energy in destroying their physical forms ?
For fxxk's sake. Franklin and Galactus fought alternate reality Celestials. Tiamut fought 616 reality Celestials. In 616 reality, Galactus expressed shock when Thanos with the HotU killed a Celestial. If this was something someone Galactus level was capable of, I doubt he'd have that reaction.
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..even the outer hells are indifferent matters for they bow only to potent and archaic Nodens.
Galactus expresses shock everytime Surfer betrays him, I think Galactus just doesn't regard anyone below abstract as at all capable of independent thought/action.
Anyway, on-topic... Dreaming Celestial ftw. FR seems like he's equal to an average Celestial at best. The Listener or whatever her name is, beat kid Franklin, didn't she?
Arishem is an alpha male among Celestials . Sure in that particular showing , Tiamut was portrayed as being his superior , but don't forget Thor#300 , in which the narrative describes him as "the mightiest of Celestials" that were present there .
So maybe , just MAYBE , it would be just that much harder to put him down(let alone damaging him) than it would be for an average Celestial . Also , while physical damage may not have been portrayed on-panel(it was Timaut's recollection after all) , considering how quickly Celestials can repair damage , its not wholly out of the realm of possibility , that Tiamut caused SOME damage to the Celestials which got repaired(all of this presumably happening off-panel) .
That's because Tiamut fought 616 Arishem. 616 Arishem was called the mightiest of the Celestials, tanked the combined blast of the three top skyfathers of Earth, had the power to destroy said skyfathers realm's gateway to Earth (sealing them off forever), destroyed the Odinsword AND the Curse on it (something Odin himself couldn't do) effortlessly.
Don't try to save Hickman from his own stupidity. The alt reality Celestials WERE destroyed. Tiamut stated 616 Celestials don't really die. Even before that Eternals issue where Tiamut said that, I believe it was stated that the reason why Tiamut was imprisoned, rather than destroyed by his brothers, was because Celestials can't be killed. This is Surfer's and Galactus' reaction when Thanos with the HotU killed 616 Ziran : (please log in to view the image)
Alt Reality ANYTHING != 616 reality counterpart. 616 is the originator, everything else is the copy (cheap copy from the looks of it too).
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..even the outer hells are indifferent matters for they bow only to potent and archaic Nodens.
What makes you think that ? And yes Ashema was indeed portrayed as superior to kid Franklin . Against Hickman's adult Franklin , she too would have received a (somewhat) similar treatment as the Mad Celestials did .
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Jul 16th, 2012 08:24 PM
