Revan vs Exar Kun (without Sith amulets/power amplification)
Ok, apologies for yet ANOTHER Revan vs Exar Kun - but I haven't seen this particular take on it before.
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I've seen a lot of Revan vs Exar Kun threads, but something that never seems to be taken into account, is that Kun, while exceptionally talented, isn't particuarly "uber" at all until he's obtained a Sith amulet (which amplifies one's abilities last I heard)... and if I recall correctly, he later aquires a second from Ulic. Exar Kun was good but without the added power of his Sith artifacts, was he really the unconquerable individual people seem to believe him to be?
So, both munchkins are wearing nothing but traditional Jedi robes, they're both handed their single weapon of choice (DBL in Exar Kun's case) and told to duke it out. They have no other equipment.
Who wins?
Personally, I'd give this to Revan - Exar Kun has never struck me as all that impressive based on his own power, whereas estimations of Revan's strength seemed to skyrocket upwards once KotOR II hit the stores... he's presented to us as a near mythic chosen-onesque figure. You can believe this to be a bad decision, but you can't deny that that is the way the game tries to sell him.
(apologies if this poll *has* been done before - I couldn't find it on the search, so just feel free to redirect me if needs be)
P.S - I actually find it pretty funny when comparisons are made between Kun and Revan, since KotOR I quite clearly altered elements of the TotJ era... and not just aesthetically.
I mean, we're told that all Kun's temples were bombed to high heaven by the Republic fleet (as opposed to a Jedi light blockage thing), and that he converted hundreds of Jedi (as opposed to twenty)... so really, comparing TotJ Kun with KotOR Revan makes no sense... since TotJ Kun might be completely different to the Kun that's described in KotOR in terms of power and ability.
You recall incorrectly. Ulic keeps his. Exar either finds or, more likely, builds at least another one.
However, since we have no real way of knowing how much his amplifications boosted his power, there's little to go on. I'll give it to Kun based on his superior knowledge of Sith Magic.
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P.S. The reason Kun isn't "uber" until he obtains his first amulet is because he hadn't yet embraced the Dark Side.
__________________ >>Antediluvian<< Stop the flood!
Registered: May 2005
Location: .::The Anti-Fanboy Confederation::.
I have to hand it to Exar.
First: We don't know if Revan had access to some power amplification. If you consider the vast amount of different lightsaber crystals that boost up your power and other equipment that makes you stronger - it's hard to judge Revan without it since we don't know what he had access to...
Second: Even if you cut off the amulet. The amulet, as far as I remember is never mentioned to boost Kun's force power - it just amplifies it when he uses the amulet. He didn't use the amulet when he defeated Vodo (somebody that was competent enough in terms of fighting to go and fight the Dark Lord of the Sith with a walking stick) nor did he while he was "stalemating" (at least) with Ulic.
Third: Even when Kun clearly didn't have access to that amulet - while being a force spirit - he was able to destroy Luke's Jedi Holocron, together with Kyp seperate Luke's spirit from his body, control one of Luke's student, knock another one out without effort, kill another just to force choke them all at once. And this is just his spirit.
So in conclusion. Kun seems to have the greater force potential and he seems to have the greater knowledge when it comes to Sith Magic (did he use the amulet to freeze the Senate ? Can't remember atm...). In terms of lightsaber combat Revan has defeated Malak and (with a little help from his friends) Bandon. That stands. But somehow Ulic - who was a lightsaber prodigy and even able to defeat a Jedi in a lightsaber fight without having any force powers left - and Vodo - who had to be a master combatant if he thought he would be able to defeat Kun using a stick - seem to be more impressive to me. And Kun defeated them. Kun would also use his own lightsaber style, a unique weapon AND he has an armor made of cortosis which would give Revan some trouble.
The only advantage for Revan that I see would be his battle precog but I doubt that this alone would be enough to defeat Kun.
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"Dear God, what is it like in your funny little brains?"
Fair dos - but that's just what I'm saying, we have no way of knowing how powerful Kun is without his amulets - nor exactly how much they boost him by... so is it really accurate to state we really know where Kun is in the grand scheme of things at all?
I mean, looking at the amulets, I'd say they were using a material similar (if not identical) to the Kaibur crystal...
Anyway, who ever said it had to be an exact science?
As for it being the dark side that provides his "instant uberness" - well, why? Did Anakin increase that dramatically in power when he embraced the dark side? Not from my perspective, but I guess that's all it's about really, perspective...
Anyway, while I will forever think that the sudden upswing in Revan's power in KotOR II was just pandering to his huge fanbase (there was none of this "Power/Heart of the Force stuff" in KotOR I after all), I'll probably always think of the guy in a more positive light than Kun.
Registered: May 2005
Location: .::The Anti-Fanboy Confederation::.
Kun without amulets is at least as powerful as he appears to be as a force spirit since he wouldn't have access to his amulets in that form. And even as a spirit he's damn powerful considering what he has done.
According to Nick Gillard he went from a level 8 duellist to a level 9 duellist just because of using the Dark Side which enabled him to "defeat" Dooku. So there is some "instant uberness" implied which would be logical since a Sith doesn't care much about killing people compared to a Jedi.
__________________
"Dear God, what is it like in your funny little brains?"
Going to the dark side increases one's combat abilities, or at least makes them easier. Sylvar was only able to claw Kun's face (when he was a padawan) because she gave in to rage.
And yes, we can know where Kun is in the grand scheme when he has his amulets because he's a known quantity. Without them, he is a relatively unknown quantity.
__________________ >>Antediluvian<< Stop the flood!
Fair enough - but isn't that I was saying? Without his amulets (as he is naturally) he is an unknown quantity.
@ Borbarad (I hadn't actually gotten around to addressing your points yet, my orginal reply was before I'd see your post)
Interesting points. When it comes to the amulet, I was always under the impression that it just made Kun stronger by wearing it. Much like wearing cortosis armour is going to protect you from lightsaber strikes... you don't need to switch it on, it just does its job. I could be perfectly wrong in this regard.
[Speaking of the cortosis armour, for the purposes of this battle, he doesn't have it. Revan and Exar are both just in Jedi robes, with lightsabers (assume they have no super-crystal properties... I never realised that the crystals were canon anyway) ]
Secondly, I was certain that Kun was only able to do his big power drain "live on as a spirit thing", while strapped to a big focusing thing. He certainly didn't just sit there in an ordinary chair and "will it to happen", he had himself chained up and everything... performing and elaborate ritual. He may have also still been wearing the amulet (which has unknown properties lets say, like I said, I could be wrong about the level of its power amplification). Regardless, he didn't have any power increasing tools once he *was* a spirit... but by then he'd already used all the borrowed power from the Massassi to *become* the uber-ghost... albeit an imprisoned in his own temple uber-ghost.
*EDIT* Wait... did I say *uber* ghost? I have the strangest memory of a three year old Jacen fending him off with a lightsaber and then a group of Jedi apprentices extinguishing his spirit... Kun was on borrowed power - without anyone to drain, he could be beaten.
*Re-EDIT* Ok yeah, Vodo helped too. Whoops.
Regardless, there's no evidence to suggest that Revan couldn't do the same if he had access to the same knowledge (but if we go down that road, then everyone can beat everyone with everyone elses knowledge). All I'm saying is - there's nothing to suggest that Revan has less potential than Kun, if anything, going by Kreia's comments, you'd have thought he had *more* potential.
As for Revan's battle precog. I don't know why this is such a big "wow" factor. Didn't stop him being blasted from behind by his own apprentice... Granted, I'm sure he'd narrowed his focus on all the Jedi opponents he was facing and "shut out" the other stuff... but it still makes me laugh regardless.
Anyway, fact of the matter is - I just always found it confusing how everyone was "wow Exar", when I thought that most of the stuff he was accomplishing was about as impressive as Aleema blowing up a star. Yeah, that sounds WELL impressive, you might say - but its not like she did it through the use of her *own* power.... it was through an ancient sith device...
Basically, I think if you tooled both Revan and Exar up with the same gear, and gave them the same about of time to prepare, Revan would come out on top. Am I right? Hell if I know, it's just the gut feeling I get when I read through the comics/play the KotOR games.
The whole Nick Gillard combat "levels" thing... mehhh... I'm sorry, but I really don't put much faith in that. This is the guy that went on about how "Its totally impossible to beat Palpatine in a lightsaber duel, you think you're beating him but he's actually just drawing you in". And there's clearly not that much differnece between an 8 and a 9, Obi-Wan is "just" a level 8 and he manages to hold off Anakin's level 9 through superior experience and level headedness.
Last edited by Ulicus on Jan 23rd, 2006 at 06:12 PM
I said he was a relatively unknown quantity since we don't know if the amulets boost his power and, if so, how much.
For one, how in God's name is Kreia's word any better than Vodo's? He calls Exar Kun the most formidable student he has ever had. Kreia may be old, but she's not 600. Ergo, the correct assumption is that Kun has more potential.
Regarding the "wow Exar" point, the feats are entirely different. Exar freezes a room full of possibly millions of beings (depends on how many member worlds there were at the time) with, as the narration describes, "a Sith spell." Not a device or amulet. He also trashes Vodo in a saber duel even though the narration describes Vodo's staff as "more powerful than Exar Kun's lightsaber!"
Gut feelings need to be supported with logic and evidence. Revan doesn't stack up.
__________________ >>Antediluvian<< Stop the flood!
Considering Vodo was teaching Crado and Sylvar...
And wasn't Kun far stronger in death thanks to all the given souls of the Massassi, the power he was able to draw from the temple and that he took from Gantoris?
I didn't say it was, but did Vodo train Revan? Do we know who Vodo had to compare him to over 600 years? No. Do I think people with Kun's potential come along all the time? Hell no, the guy's exceptional. If anything it's something of an oddity that we've got another legendary Sith Lord so shortly after him. (I really think that KotOR should have been set a good MILLENNIUM after Kun's time...)
Again, you don't know how much power Kun draws from the amulet. Everyone's fixated on whether or not he "used the amulet for this", or "used the amulet for that" - I'm saying that I think its, essentially, got the same sort of properties as the kaibur crystal. It makes him super-Sith. Do I know for sure? Nah. It's just what it looks like and it seems to have those sorts of properties.
Well then the narration was wrong...
No they don't, that's why they're gut feelings.
"I don't like that guy"
"Why, he's done nothing wrong"
"Just a gut feeling"
If I was arguing that I was correct, then you'd be accurate... but I've not claimed that.
Basically, I don't think Exar Kun of TotJ is that impressive. Exar Kun of the trembling ground as described in KotOR however, is. In the comics, the 'Great Sith War' is comprised of... four battles or something? I often get told "Oh, its just the highlights" - it's not. I scoured the Sith War comics looking for areas where it says "months pass as the conflict escalates", or even points where one could *assume* that months pass and more battles are fought- that's all I wanted. But no. Similarly, Kun converts a measly twenty Jedi in the comics - according to KotOR he converts hundreds.
Revan has a huge "overrated" stamp on his forehead - TotJ Kun should have a bigger one.
Last edited by Ulicus on Jan 23rd, 2006 at 06:41 PM
Yes Lightsnake. In all his six hundred years, Vodo only trained three apprentices. You got it spot-on!
Quoting from the other thread:
Yes, but reason would tell you that Vodo's seen far more force users than Kreia's had, including even Freedon Nadd.
Okay, if you don't know for sure... why does this thread exist?
The narration isn't wrong. The narrator in TOTJ is omniscient. However, the narrator I quoted is from the beginning of DLotS whereas the fight in question is in TSW. Still, there's nothing to suggest that Vodo's suddenly lost the ability to make his staff like that.
I would argue that TOTJ Exar Kun, who destroys centuries and millenia-old Jedi Masters like they were nothing, is much more impressive than the Kun described in KOTOR by a paranoid, rambling rodian.
But I've always maintained that the Sith War was moreso a few spectacular acts of terrorism than a real war. Whoever's telling you that it's "just the highlights" is exaggerating: there were more fights, they just weren't very large. Mostly shipyard raids. There were very few real battles and all.
However, this is really irrelevant to a fight. This is a battle between two men, not a feat war of what they've accomplished.
Yeah... sure, but just because he's seen more force users than Qui-Gon Jinn doesn't mean that Qui-Gon Jinn didn't see what potentially a far more powerful being than Exar Kun....
Because I wanted to see what other people thought. Time was when these "versus" things were hypothetical.
It was only written by a person, the person was trying to put the emphasis on the fact that Kun's achieved what was *thought* to be an impossible feat. From a linguistic standpoint, he's wrong. It's like if someone wrote, "a silent whisper" - obviously they're trying to get across that its REALLY quiet, but they've gone about it completely the wrong way about it.
Though really, I guess it depends on how you're defining "powerful" - I just took it to mean "yeah, more powerful than the lightsaber, but not Kun's rage".
I concede the point.
Yeah, but one assumes that KotOR Kun did that too in addition to all his rumbleworthyness. At least I did.
That's the impression I got too, I found it irritating.
Oh, yes, show me where I even implied Vodo was teaching only Crado and Sylvar!
And yes, the Sith War was incredibly small scale and Kun never even led a battle personally...I blame Ulic's idiocy.
If Kun had ever fought and destroyed masters who showed themselves capable of real things....not incompetents like Odan and Vodo-who knew the historical precedent of Jedi infiltrating the Darkside, not Vodo who for some reason neglects to use that damn wall of light he and Nomi used on Kun....blocking Kun from the force may've helped a BIT
It makes it seem far more likely. If I shoot a basketball 1000 times from 50 feet away, my chances are far better of making a basket than if I shoot just 5.
And besides, we KNOW Vodo has trained some of the best Jedi in the order, because it was stated in TOTJ. He's 600 years old, so it's also reasonable to assume he saw Freedon Nadd. Freedon Nadd singlehandedly conquered an entire warring planet. His spirit instakilled another force user; it's entirely possible he defeated Naga Sadow's spirit.
The argument posed that Revan may have been superior is moot, as it's just so purely speculation it's pointless. Meanwhile Vodo's quote is absolute, Kun was the most formidable student Vodo ever taught.
A silent whisper is used in a literary, rhetorical sense. Just like "deafening silence" or other such oxymoronica. Using an objective comparison such as staff is stronger than lightsaber (staff > lightsaber) is not so easily defeated by arguing the narrator is wrong.
Why are the two being described differently? They are both referring to the same individual. The same guy that demonstrated such immense dark side powers as to make the earth tremble, or to instakill a millenia old Jedi, or to fling other Jedi around like ragdolls beneath his notice.
The mere fact you're degrading his quote by uttering something as stupid as "Considering Vodo was teaching Crado and Sylvar..." indicates you're attempting to undermine the value of that quote. Plain and simple.
Substantiate. Does it ever say he was stronger in death than in life? Does it ever use abilities that greatly exceeded what was shown he was capable in life?
Short answer: No!
Since when was "powerful and revered" Vodo an incompetent? I like how you infuse your own bias into analysis. Anyone that Kun beat must instantly be a weakling.
1. We know Vodo trained Crado and Sylvar. And given the best of the Order were total morons, not that impressive...We never saw Vodo as anything but an incompetent. Hm, we know what Exar's doing...but we don't even try to counsel him! Let's show him violence his bad by kicking his ass! Let's not share the information he's behind the war! Let's decide to NOT restrain him and enter into a futile fight! Let's NOT use the damn block technique with Nomi and totally end the war!
2. Freedon Nadd personally took on a planet's army? I think you mean: "He used Sith magic to make them believe him a God." Insta killed a force user? You mean 'took the soul from Ommin who had just had the only thing keeping him alive destroyed.
3. In life....did Kun ever have massive areas of the dark side to focus his power on with the life energy of an entire race? Ever read I, Jedi?
If anything, the Jedi Order that Sidious topples was filled with the more total of morons. How does subjective statements like this get you anywhere?
Missed the part where he demolished the beast riders? And did you ever see that feat duplicated? I suppose Sidious could have found that bit useful before he was tossed into a reactor core.
In life, he had a large amount of sith paraphenelia that you complain about incessantly, he doesn't have that in death.
So which is it? Is the amulets that power him up or the life energy? You can't have your cake and eat it, hypocrite.
In death, do you ever see him blasting holes through walls with just the force?
Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Hiding from zombies
I like how anyone who doesn't fight Sidious or support your blatant bias is a "moron", or "not that impressive" or "weak and incompetent". That's the majority of your counter arguments, LS. "(I think) Person A sucks, therefore Person B who beat the shit out of A sucks. Person C (Whom I think is my fictional god) can do random unrelated feat X, which (I perceive) is better than the sheer displays of power and badassedry of Person B. Therefore, Person C beats Person B!"
Viola! Lightsnake logic!
So Onderon had -never- seen a Force sensitive before, huh? They saw some minor tricks by Freedan Nadd and they surrendered their planet? This, from a civilization based on fighting the hostile jungle and their brethren? This is like Gandalf lighting off fireworks and Transylvania surrendering to him. What a ridiculous, unsupported speculation.
Hm. Did Sidious ever master any fighting forms? No. Therefore anyone with a mastered style would pwn him. Wait... that makes no sense!
Did Sidious ever rule over a Sith Empire of numerous Sith Lords of great power and age who created artifacts that make the Deathstar look like a paperweight? No. Therefore Ragnos, Simus, and Sadow would pwn him, huh? Wait... that makes no sense!
Did Sidious ever make the Kessel Run in 12 parsecs?
Seriously... Feat Wars: Return of the Fanboy.
Lying, hyperbole-using, circular reasoning fanboys can't save Sidious. QE-****ing-D.
1. What Jedi in the PT turned around in the middle of battle to lecture an opponent? Were any Jedi in the OJO described as greatest swordsmen the Order'd produced or Avatars of light, strongest foes the darkness had ever faced, etc?
2. Demolished the Beast Riders? Nadd failed against them and his DESCENDANTS were having trouble with them 400 years later..
3.Your point being? The knowledge would stick with him, and considering he left it by Yavin and used Yavin to focus his powers. And the life forces of the Massassi....This is him as a spirit...did you not read I, Jedi?
4. Yes, I'm sure in death, Exar was being squeezed by a giant Leviathan and needed to react suddenly as he could to save his ass. We see his melt stone and throw Corran around a bit, as well as use illusions upon the students.
1. You turn around in a firefight to lecture your student? You make the ****ups Vodo did? Yeah, that's just plain idiotic. And please, what did Kun or Ragnos do that was better than Sidious? Destroyed a fleet. Remember, an entire Republic fleet using a technique described as possibly the most powerful force technique and stronges tSith technique....wow, when you get right down to it...you have no argument and need to resort to insults!
2. Nadd saved them from the beasts...and by the time of Ulic, Onderonians had only JUST gotten space travel...yeah, Nadd was the first force user they'd seen do anything, kinda like the Sith with the Hundred Years darkness remnants.
3. Artifacts that made the DS a paperweight? Name one thing the Sith had that could destroy planets. Just one now...we know Sidious had weapons to destroy solar systems already...Did Sidious ever master any weapons and styles? According to Nick Gillard, yes! According to the Character guide, yep! According to Darth Maul? Oh yeah.
Jan 23rd, 2006 11:55 AM
