Registered: Jun 2016
Location: The Throne of the Sheevites
Part 2
Oh, I will get to Kolar soon enough. For now, I am more interested in your query: ”remind me when Kenobi last blitzed another notable Jedi.” I am seriously wondering why you would ask such a question, because I do hope, that you understand that Kenobi not having done something does not equate to him not being capable of it. I also hope, that you weren’t planning on pulling the classical argument from ignorance, because I’d hate to be forced to give another education to the people about it, but given that you asked this question in the first place, it would certainly seem like you are leaning towards that line of thinking, so I’ll simply state that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, and that inactivity does not necessarily equate to inability, when confronted with logical evidence that it doesn’t.
With that out of the way, no, Kenobi has never, to my knowledge, outright blitzed another Force user. However, he does have something of worth in the speed department:
He leaned into a thrust at Kenobi's gut that the Jedi Master deflected with a rising parry, bringing them chest-to-chest, blades
flaring, locked together a handbreadth from each other's throats. "Your moves are too slow, Kenobi. Too predictable. You'll have to
do better.”
Kenobi's response to this friendly word was to regard him with a twinkle of gentle amusement in his eye.
"Very well, then," the Jedi said, and shot straight upward over Dooku's head so fast it seemed he'd vanished.
And in the space where Kenobi's chest had been was now only the blue lightning of Skywalker's blade driving straight for Dooku's heart.
Only a desperate whirl to one side made what would have been a smoking hole in his chest into a line of scorch through his
armorweave cloak.
Dooku thought, What?
He threw himself spinning up and away from the two Jedi to land on the situation table, disengaging for a moment to recover his composure—that had been entirely too close—but by the time his boots touched down Kenobi was there to meet him, blade weaving through a defensive velocity so bewilderingly fast that Dooku dared not even try a strike; he threw a feint toward Kenobi's face, then dropped and spun in a reverse ankle-sweep— But not only did Kenobi easily overleap this attack, Dooku nearly lost his own foot to a slash from Skywalker who had again come out of nowhere and now carved through the table so that it collapsed under Dooku's weight and dumped the Sith Lord unceremoniously to the floor. This was not in the plan. Skywalker slammed his following strike down so hard that the shock of deflecting it buckled Dooku's elbows. Dooku threw himself into a backroll that brought him to his feet—and Kenobi's blade was there to meet his neck. Only a desperate whirling slash-block, coupled with a wheel kick that caught Kenobi on the thigh, bought him enough time to leap away again, and when he touched down— Skywalker was already there.
The first overhand chop of Skywalker's blade slid off Dooku's instinctive guard. The second bent Dooku's wrist. The third flash of blue forced Dooku's scarlet blade so far to the inside that his own lightsaber scorched his shoulder, and Dooku was forced to give ground.
Dooku felt himself blanch. Where had this come from? Skywalker came on, mechanically inexorable, impossibly powerful, a destroyer droid with a lightsaber: each step a blow and each blow a step.
Dooku backed away as fast as he dared; Skywalker stayed right on top of him. Dooku's breath went short and hard. He no longer tried to block Skywalker's strikes but only to guide them slanting away; he could not meet Skywalker strength-to-strength—not only did the boy wield tremendous reserves of Force energy, but his sheer physical power was astonishing— And only then did Dooku understand that he'd been suckered.
Skywalker's Shien ready-stance had been a ruse, as had his Ataro gymnastics; the boy was a Djem So stylist, and as fine a one as
Dooku had ever seen. His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head.
Especially not while also defending against a second attacker.
It was time to alter his own tactics.
He dropped low and spun into another reverse ankle-sweep—the weakness of Djem So was its lack of mobility—that slapped Skywalker's boot sharply enough to throw the young Jedi off balance, giving Dooku the opportunity to leap away— Only to find himself again facing the wheel of blue lightning that was Kenobi's blade.
Dooku decided that the comedy had ended.
Now it was time to kill.
Kenobi's Master had been Qui-Gon Jinn, Dooku's own Padawan; Dooku had fenced Qui-Gon thousands of times, and he knew every weakness of the Ataro form, with its ridiculous acrobatics. He drove a series of flashing thrusts toward Kenobi's legs to draw the Jedi Master into a flipping overhead leap so that Dooku could burn through his spine from kidneys to shoulder blades—and this image, this plan, was so clear in Dooku's mind that he almost failed to notice that Kenobi met every one of his thrusts without so much as moving his feet, staying perfectly centered, perfectly balanced, blade never moving a millimeter more than was necessary, deflecting without effort, riposting with flickering strikes and stabs swifter than the tongue of a Garollian ghost viper, and when Dooku felt Skywalker regain his feet and stride once more toward his back, he finally registered the source of that blinding defensive velocity Kenobi had used a moment ago, and only then, belatedly, did he understand that Kenobi's Ataro and Shii-Cho had been ploys, as well.
Kenobi had become a master of Soresu.
Dooku found himself having a sudden, unexpected, overpowering, and entirely distressing bad feeling about this...
--Revenge of the Sith novelization
So to summarize, Kenobi moves so fast that from Dooku’s perspective it looked like he literally vanished, after which Kenobi delivers a “blinding” defensive velocity “so bewilderingly fast that Dooku dared not even try a strike.” Obi-Wan then proceeds to completely no-sell Dooku’s fastest flurry of strikes “without effort.” Let me remind you, that this is the same Dooku who managed to last a short while against Yoda, you know, the guy who, while unarmed, speedblitzed Plo Koon, Depa Billaba and Saesee Tiin all at once; and fought as an equal (in some versions he was described as even faster) with Palpatine, the very same man who blitzed Agen Kolar in one swing.
Seeing where I am going with this? Obi-Wan Kenobi may not be as fast as Yoda or Palpatine, but he is not nearly as far behind as some would like you to believe, and he us certainly much, much faster than Agen Kolar. With the feats and line of scaling I just presented, the notion of him giving this team the same treatment as Palpatine gave to the B-team is not at all an unfeasible one.
Registered: Jun 2016
Location: The Throne of the Sheevites
Part 3
What? Are you seriously arguing using the ancient and archaic method of afterimages? That is nothing but the artist’s way of drawing fast blade movement. With that kind of logic you’ll arrive at asinine conclusions like Vos > Yoda because the former generated more afterimages than the latter. And it is indeed quite asinine, considering that Agen Kolar basically blitzstomped Vos, and then got the same treatment from Palpatine, someone who’s Yoda’s equal.
Next point: what exactly do you have to prove that the likes of Ventress and Savage are of similar speed to Vos? Ah yes, absolutely nothing. In case you haven’t realized, this is a 1v1 debate where we have both agreed to a three-posts-per-user rule, meaning an opener, a counter, and a finisher for each user. This is not a typical thread where unlimited posts are permitted. Here you only have three posts so it would be wise to provide evidence for every claim you make, because you don’t have the luxury of doing so later only after being asked. Well, you do, but if you do so, you waste a post and automatically lose the point to the opponent - just like you have here, because with no evidence, you claim that Savage ~ Ventress ~ Vos in speed is completely, utterly, totally, and wholly worthless.
So we are back to Kolar blitzing Vos, and Kenobi damn near blitzing Kolar, which is very much a thing given what I have shown up above. Regardless to say, Vos goes down in a single swing of Kenobi’s sapphire blade.
If we go by your logic, Kolar’s feat of stomping Vos doesn’t count as a legitimate skill feat, because according to you, just because someone is faster doesn’t mean they’re more skilled. Congratulations, you’ve just stripped one of your characters of his only skill feat, and given his lack of Force feats, have reduced him to a status of total featlessness, aside from speed which is irrelevant when he’s going up against someone vastly faster than him.
Anyway, you have completely failed to take into account the fact that Force users are able to “see” with their Force senses as well, even if their eyes fail them. For example, in Revenge of the Sith, Mace Windu and Darth Sidious were moving so fast that “Anakin could not truly see them - but [B]he could feel them in the Force”[b]. By the same token, Leia in Dark Empire commented on his brother Luke’s duel with the Reborn Palpatine that ”they’re both moving so fast, I can hardly see them”, but still noted that she could feel in the Force how Luke was winning the duel regardless. That is exactly how Dooku managed to parry Kenobi’s strikes despite them being “blinding” and “bewilderingly fast”, so much so that he seemed to vanish. One of the earliest lessons in all of Star Wars comes from Obi-Wan himself to Luke in A New Hope: “Your eyes can deceive you, don’t trust them.” Kreia from Knights of the Old Republic II added that “sight can prove a distraction” and that “When one relies on sight to perceive the world, it is like trying to stare at the galaxy through a crack in the door."
The point being that simply because Maul did not perceive Sidious’ movements with his eyes, does not negate the idea that he could still sense his movements in the Force. In the instance you cited, he had just been unarmed by Sidious, and thus had no way to defend himself, so that cannot be used as evidence that he would be unable to even react. Nor do I think that Maul even had any incentive to engage in his Master blade-to-blade there anyway. The same goes for Kit Fisto, that perhaps he didn’t actually see Sidious’ move, but rather only felt him in the Force and could thus block a few strikes. In fact, I am very doubtful of the notion that he did see Sidious with his eyes, given that even Anakin - an infinitely more powerful Force user who could definitely augment his eyesight with the Force to a far better degree than Fisto - couldn’t truly see Palpatine move either.
This leads into another point: Kit managing to block Palpatine’s blows in contrast to Agen’s failure can indeed be used as a way to say he’s a better duelist overall. First of all, I haven’t seen an example where a Force user is faster than another but inferior in other areas; the example you cited earlier was reliant on the fallacy of quoting out of context and doesn’t count. Unless a Force user is specialized in a particular Force power (i.e. Corran Horn for Tutaminis), all their Force abilities are drawn from the same source of power: their own Force reserves. You almost never see a Force user practise a single Force power (unless it is an esoteric one that they just learned), rather, you see them meditating and increasing their connection to the Force as a whole, because it develops all their basic abilities at the same time. Thus, unless Kit Fisto is specialized in speed, of which I have no indication of or reason to believe, all his physicals, his precognition, his senses, should be superior to Kolar’s, as they are all drawn from the same source of power, and as the Force is what decides lightsaber duels more than anything, Fisto is overall the superior duelist.
Ultimately, Kolar gets the short straw every time, because no matter which logic you go by, mine or yours, Kenobi stomps regardless.
And then Vos, despite struggling with his dark side and presumably being hindered as a result, killed Bulq. Bulq is a Vos-level/sub-Vos duelist, and goes down in a single swing against Kenobi.
Mastering all forms is one of the most useless accolades ever. A jack-of-all trades is good at all but not particularly great at anything (relatively speaking; obviously “mastering” the forms implies a very high degree of skill in each, but at the level of duelists we are examining, it counts for nought), and can easily be defeated by a specialist like Vos or Dooku. It does nothing to change his position next to anyone, least of all Kenobi, who still blitzes him per the lines of scaling I’ve provided.
Your point about Bulq fighting Mace is also ridiculously flawed. You continuously rely on an appeal to a pre-established hierarchy of characters to make your points, i.e. Mace > Kenobi, Savage ~ Ventress ~ Vos in speed etc. What you fail to understand that your personal ranking of characters is not universally accepted as fact, and more importantly, in debates people aren’t necessarily arguing their own beliefs or positions that follow the consensus or ones that are considered “rational”. A debater who argues a stance contradictory to his own opinions or the opinions of the majority is known the Devil’s Advocate, if you aren’t aware, which you probably aren’t given the sheer amount of appeals to your personal hierarchy in your post and thinking they actually constitute for something. But as a Devil’s Advocate, you must remember that what I say here may not always be reflective of my own opinion on things. For example, I could easily wank Kenobi to Valkorion-level in Force power here, and say he decimates an army of Quinlan Vos’ or Sora Bulq’s with a flick of his wrist, and your personal rankings wouldn’t count for shit. Just like they don’t count now, or ever, and your entire argument is an epic fail.
Registered: Jun 2016
Location: The Throne of the Sheevites
Part 4
But just in case you do decide to present something for Mace in your next post, I’ll debunk the feat right now. First of all, Mace Windu was highly distressed by Bulq’s betrayal, which is noted to majorly hamper one’s ability to draw on the Force:
Mace was highly distressed that his mission involved fighting his old friend and colleague Sora Bulq.
--Fact File
HK-47: “But the most effective weapon against Jedi seems to be the erosion of the spirit.”
The Exile: “What do you mean?”
HK-47: “Answer: Revan claimed that psychological warfare against Jedi was important because much of their power comes from their state of mind, their connection to this religion called the ‘Force.’
[...]
When a Jedi, or any soldier, suffers doubt, it weakens them. With the Jedi, however, it is more pronounced, since they are extreme examples.
[...]
The emotional weight of war changed Jedi morale, power, and eventually allegiance.
[...]
Make him doubt himself, his beliefs, or his intentions. Such things disrupt connections to the Force—and death soon follows.”
--Knights of the Old Republic II
Second, Mace was not in his prime during this fight; he only truly learned to use Vaapad - his trade mark style and most effective weapon - after his ordeal on Haruun Kal:
There was a time when Mace Windu had feared the power of the dark; there was a time when he had feared the darkness in himself. But the Clone Wars had given him a gift of understanding: on a world called Haruun Kal, he had faced his darkness and had learned that the power of darkness is not to be feared.
--Revenge of the Sith novelization
"It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you."
--Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic II
Tell me when you have proof that Bulq can contend with a non-hindered prime Windu. Because as it is, all he’s got is being clowned by an exhausted Dooku with the aid of Tholme, and losing to Quinlan Vos. Kenobi blitzes.
Maybe proper research on the opposing character would be wise before deciding to debate against them. For one, Agen is featless, and Vos and Bulq are canonically, at best, equal to Ventress:
[I]Perhaps Tyranus' most powerful student was Asajj Ventress.
--Star Wars Fact File 116
Kenobi then cracked her ribs with just a single Force push:
"No," she said. "I'm just going to kill you."
Then he threw her backward with a Force push. She hit a column hard enough to hear something crack, and staggered to her feet. Kenobi summoned his lightsaber back to his hand with a grin.
[...]
Ventress chased him through the passages and up flights of ancient stone stairs, slowed by whatever she'd injured - vertebrae, ribs? - even if the adrenaline and endorphins flooding her blood-stream had completely numbed any pain for the time being. She didn't have time to stop and check her comm for an update on Skywalker and his escape attempt.
--The Clone Wars novelization
This means Kenobi could just simply start spamming Force pushes reduce their internal organs to mush. The feat also opens up Kenobi to a nice line of scaling:
1. Anakin ragdolls a CIS dreadnought:
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2. Saato and Trenox, Dooku’s acolytes, ragdoll and one-shot Anakin:
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3. Ventress is at least just as powerful as either of them per the quote I showed, so she’d be able to stomp Anakin too.
4. Obi-Wan is capable of cracking Ventress’ ribs with just a simple push, and has been stated to be more powerful than the dreadnought-ragdolling Anakin:
"Anakin leaves quite a mess, " he replied. "Which always leads me to you, Ventress. "
"Take him!" Ventress ordered the super battle droids.
She ran for a side exit. Anakin Skywalker was a powerful Jedi, but she knew Obi-Wan was even stronger.
--The Clone Wars junior novelization
If manage to prove this team is more powerful than even AotC Anakin, we can start discussing Ventress or something. Kenobi, at this point, is just shooting for the stars. And raw power is not his only advantage; he has a fair bit of hax, too, as demonstrated when he used a technique called “Force Death-Blow” to one-shot Anakin Skywalker, a Force user capable of dominating the likes of Ventress:
Registered: Jun 2016
Location: The Throne of the Sheevites
Part 5
One last thing for Kenobi is the fact that in order to penetrate his Force defences, Dooku had to exert almost all of his power into accomplishing said task. This is quite different from how he handled Ventress, only requiring to lift his finger to dominate her:
To begin with, Anakin and Obi-Wan did well, pushing Dooku back and destroying the B2 droids. Realizing that each Jedi was a threat on their own, Dooku abruptly switched tactics. He lifted Obi-Wan in a choke-hold, simultaneously kicking Anakin out of the way and hurling Kenobi across the room, bringing down a section of walkway to trap him there. However, in expending all his energy to dispatch Kenobi, the Count was left helpless before Skywalker's rage.
--The Official Starships and Vehicles Collection 32
"Don't patronize me," Asajj said coldly.
Dooku looked around. "Or what?"
Her face went pale.
Dooku lifted that one finger, and this time he tapped it in the air, as if pushing a needle into a pincushion. Ventress crumpled to her knees. Her voice came out clotted with pain. "Please," she said. "Don't."
"It doesn't feel good, does it? Like sharp stones in your throat and chest." Dooku made another little patting motion, and Ventress slammed to the tile floor. "It's the blood vessels I hate,” Dooku said. "The way they stretch inside like balloons about to pop."
"P-p-p-please..."
"But worse anything is the memories," he said, more softly still. "They crowed around, like flies on meat. Every despicable thing, every petty vice, every little act of spite." A cruel, strange quiet stretched out as Ventress panted on the stone floor. Rain ticked against the window glass, and the Count's voice went dark and far away. "All the things you should have stopped, but didn't, and nothing will ever be right again. And the things you've done," he whispered. "By the pitless stars, the things you've done..."
The comm on Dooku's desk beeped. He shook his head, like a man waking from a dream. "The Troxan delegation is at the door."
Ventress crawled to her feet. Her face was bruised and her cheeks were wet with tears. Both pretended not to notice.
--Yoda: Dark Rendezvous
The sheer difference in effort that Dooku had to exert is proof enough for me that prime Kenobi is capable of outright ragdolling Ventress without too much issue. Another interesting thing about the feat is that because Dooku has grown ”infinitely more powerful” since his Jedi days and possesses “power beyond his most spectacular fantasies” he had as a Jedi, it’s pretty safe to say that the Sith Lord Darth Tyranus is significantly if not vastly more powerful than his Jedi self:
"I have spent the last ten years learning to use the power of the Dark Side. It gives me infinitely greater power."
--Dooku, Attack of the Clones script
Not only had the Dark Lord introduced Dooku to realms of power beyond his most spectacular fantasies, but Sidious was also a political manipulator so subtle that his abilities might be considered to dwarf even the power of the dark side itself.
--Revenge of the Sith novelization
Following this line of thinking, if Sith Dooku requires immense effort to dominate Kenobi, and is vastly more powerful than Jedi Dooku, would it be out of the question to suggest that RotS Kenobi may be rather close in power to Jedi Dooku? I wouldn’t say so. So if we accept that - and I see no reason not to - it unlocks a few more lines scaling for Kenobi. First, Jedi Dooku was the Jedi Order’s greatest student, which would put him above the likes of TPM Mace Windu, who has been labelled as “the most powerful Master ever to have walked the corridors of the Jedi Temple”:
"Hm." Yoda stirred again with his stick. "Then best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force?" He nodded. "Best of all, Dooku would be!" His eyes found the other Jedi, one by one: and one by one, they looked away. "Our great student!" Yoda's ears flexed, then drooped. "Our great failure."
--Yoda: Dark Rendezvous
On the other side of the galaxy, the Order's most gifted apprentice reached out to tap a lightsaber with the toe of his boot. Count Dooku grimaced.
--Yoda: Dark Rendezvous
Alongside Mace Windu, with whom he served on the Jedi Council, Yoda was the most respected and most powerful Master ever to have walked the corridors of the Jedi Temple.
--Fact File 11
A curious person who once walked the halls of the Jedi Temple would be none other than the Prodigal Knight himself, Revan. Revan happens to possess this really nice feat where he disintegrates the Dark Council member Darth Nyriss with his raw power in the Force:
Revan emerged from the cell. He Had pulled the hood of his Jedi robe up to cover his head, and he word the red-and-gray mask, hiding his face. A dozen bolts of lightning sprang from Nyriss's hand, arcing across the room to incinerate her enemies.
Instead of leaping back into the cell to avoid the deadly attack, Revan stepped forward to intercept it. Both hands were held in front of him, his arms fully extended at shoulder height, his thumbs touching and his fingers splayed wide.
He drew the bolts of lightning into his waiting grasp, channeling them away from their intended targets and absorbing their power. "I am Revan reborn," he said to Nyriss. "And before me you are nothing."
Nyriss's eyes went wide as Revan unleashed the power of her own attack against her. She tried to throw up another Force shield, but the bolts ripped it apart and continued on unabated. The lightning engulfed her, the intense heat consuming her instantly, leaving only a pile of charred ash.
--The Old Republic: Revan
Using the chaos of this reprisal as cover, Scourge and Meetra free Revan but are nearly stopped by Nyriss. Revan's raw power in the Force bends Nyriss's Sith lightning back at her, utterly destroying the Sith Lord.
--The Essential Reader’s Companion
Naysayers would argue this is Revan Reborn, who never walked the halls of the Jedi Temple, but I would counter with the fact that he was on one of the most potent dark side nexi in the mythos, and had also been forced to take Force-hampering drugs, making him severely weakened. It’s not at all a stretch to attribute this feat to the capabilities of KotOR Revan, whom we saw walking the halls of the Jedi Temple in the beginning of the novel. So he is weaker than TPM Dooku and TPM Mace, meaning roughly as strong as prime Kenobi, given the line of scaling I just posted.
With all that out of the way, I honestly do not see any way this team could ever even hope to touch Kenobi in a wizarding battle. If you ask me, I say he just pulverizes them all at once, kinda like he, vastly pre-prime, pulverized the blaster-resistant Durge:
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Some of the biggest logical leaps I have ever seen. There is literally nothing that you have shown that ties Kenobi to these guys. There is no logic behind any of this. “Bulq contended with Mace and mastered all forms; Kolar >>> Vos; Vos > Aayla, Tholme; therefore Bulq, Kolar, Vos >> Kenobi” is the same as saying “Zett Jukassa > clones; therefore Zett Jukassa > Darth Vader”. While the latter example may be a bit more extreme, it functions adequately nonetheless; there is no premise establishing a why Zett beating clones puts him above Vader, just as there is no premise in your post establishing why the team doing all the shit you’ve described puts them in any way above Kenobi. That, on top of using an abundance of logical fallacies, forgetting to even present an argument for one of your characters, and employing self-defeating logic that disabled the use of the only skill feat for said character, I’d say that you have done a pretty garbage job of presenting your case so far. You just spammed funny images to compensate for the lack of substance, and hoped that the resident retards like Ant would fall for it and vote for you. It reminds me of when a guy who has a small dick buys an expensive lamborghini to compensate. Lots of buck but no bang.
Now, I have given you a few tips on how to debate properly. Go and make use of them, and maybe I’ll see why everyone ranks you so highly as a debater, and this just might be worth my time. Your turn, ChocolateMuslim.
Some very robust counters from Azzy. They can be found in between the dramatics and dictionary explanations. It did take a bit of patience to get through, which is unfortunate, because not every reader is willing to honour your five-part post with their attention. Think about employing more succinct paragraphs ought you suffer for writing too much. It won't hinder you, because everyone judging knows the lore well, meaning that exhaustivities like this...
Could be replaced by this :
__________________
“We defeated the wrong enemy” - General George S. Patton, Berlin 1945
Aug 24th, 2017 06:08 PM
That is nothing but the artist’s way of drawing fast blade movement. With that kind of logic you’ll arrive at asinine conclusions like Vos > Yoda because the former generated more afterimages than the latter. And it is indeed quite asinine, considering that Agen Kolar basically blitzstomped Vos, and then got the same treatment from Palpatine, someone who’s Yoda’s equal.
exactly. Getting to the point quicker will do you wonders, Azzy.
