yeah we should always try to keep these list's seperate. a Marvel and DC thread both about hand to hand fighting skill.
I cant really coment on the top rung all Ive even herd is that guys like Black Panther are in the A-league but Im pretty lost about the character's themselves. but the general feel im getting is that Blade, Punisher, Black Cat are probably bottom rung.
even tho Blade is still pretty formidable with his other talents.
No disrespect to Darth, but that list is far from accurate.
Lady Shiva is still regarded as being a hair better than Batgirl. Put it this way - if they squared off 10 times, I **think** the general consensus is that LS would win 6 to 6.5 times out of 10.
Re: Batman, correct. Batman is not regarded as being a better combatant than LS by any means of the imagination.
Jamaican, Batman is indeed substantially below the likes of Stick and Iron Fist. Lady Shiva is regarded as being on the level of Stick, IF, and Shang Chi. Kirigi? No clue why he is up there. Ogun is a joke, Wolverine is NOT on Black Panther's level, Nightwing is better than Robin, et cetera.
Gregory and Never thanks for the info. Good to have people on the board that know what they're talking about. Another question though, when did Batgirl become so good? Who trained her? And if she's on or around the same level as Lady Shiva, would that mean that she would beat Batman?
Batgirl was trained by Lady Shiva herself; the price of the training was that she would fight Shiva to the death after the training was complete. Batgirl beat Lady Shiva (by exploiting her death wish), but did not kill her. She might be able to beat Batman, too (it's hard too say for certain; she beat Shiva by exploiting a weakness Batman doesn't have, so it's not a matter of pure skill).
__________________ "Men curse the Communist Party, but eventually it may release them. If hell were endless, then God would be worse than our Secret Police."--Pastor Valentin
my reasoning behind putting members of the chaste so high up (including elektra and DD) is that they are in a mystical order charged with defending the earth from and inhuman monster that commands the hand called the beast (who based on appearance and smell is either from limbo or is one of mephisto's buddies). DD and E's martial arts skills are at a level where they can best several highly skilled opponents at the same time, transfer their ki to other beings, communicate telepathically, and exert their will over others. You don't see DD doing this much cause he doesn't really know how to do it voluntarily. You don't see bats or wolvie doing this kind of thing either. any time that E or DD have been beaten, they've either been in a state of mental psychosis, extremely weakened, or caught completely by surprise.
__________________ Land of the free, home of the brave...
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In this land of dreams find myself sober...
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Hmm, was Elektra weakened, caught by surprise, or hypnotized when Bullseye killed her?
Pretty sure that The Beast is not related to Mephisto; will double check.
Elektra and Daredevil can transfer their chi to other human beings? Have not read any new DD or Elektra, but DD was **kind of familiar** with the rudimentaries of manipulating energy. He did it when they were trying to resurrect Elektra. Stick taught him, of course.
Elektra could communicate telepathically and even subvert others to a degree (she did it to Garrison in Elektra:Assassin), but I have never seen DD do it.
LS vs. Batman...no clue who would win it. Do you guys mean in straight h2h? I would be quick to point out that Batman cheats, but so does LS.
Am sure some sandy vaginas will emerge and moan whenever I mention Batman defeating anyone WITH PREP TIME, yet I stumbled upon this interesting response by an editor of DC Comics in a thread that asked who would win if "The Big 7" were unleashed on each other. The Big 7 being Aquaman, Batman, Superman, Wonderman, Flash, Martian Manhunter, Green Lantern. I also once commented that Wonder Woman was right behind Superman in strength. It is mentioned here again (for anyone interested).
"Superman has killed too, mind you. Not just Diana and Arthur.
Unless they are near water, I see Aquaman going down first. Sorry Orin.
Flash is next....superspeed can't stand up to mental assaults from J'onn.
Kyle may have the most powerful weapon in the universe, but Wonder Woman, Superman, J'onn, and Batman all coming at him at once? Sorry Kyle.
By the way, Superman is stronger than Wonder Woman. She is second to him in terms of strength. Him and J'onn go at her at once and she goes down. Plus as someone pointed out she is vulnerable to mental attacks.
Supes and J'onn are the same strength level, plus J'onn has telepathy and molecular manipulation. Superman goes down.
Now it's a toss up between J'onn and Batman. J'onn has all the power, but Batman has all those brains plus those nifty gadgets. We've seen Bats take down the entire JLA by himself. In the end, with prep time, Batman. Without prep time, Manhunter."
that is IF the big 7 actually followed the order of the fight stated. but if wonderwoman, superman, and j'onn decided to go after batman first... no contest.
If it's no contest, how come Batman has beaten Superman and been such a good match for Wonder Woman that she uses him as a sparring partner?
__________________ "Men curse the Communist Party, but eventually it may release them. If hell were endless, then God would be worse than our Secret Police."--Pastor Valentin
i don't mean the x-men's beast, i mean the demon that leads the hand. and elektra was surprised and completely unprepared for bullseye. she had no idea of his perfect aim and really fell when he slashed her throat with the playing card.
__________________ Land of the free, home of the brave...
Do you think we will ever be saved?
In this land of dreams find myself sober...
Wonder when will it'll all be over...
Living in a void when the void grows colder...
Wonder when it'll all be over?
Will you be laughing when it's over?
i understand comic books are fiction, but sometimes its just...stupid. i can hack away at my skin with a playing card for an hour and not get anything more than a red mark and some irritation. perfect aim has nothing to do with making a playing card sharper or thinner or whatever else
it's all about force and aim, a tornado can drive an egg through a brick wall without breaking the egg.
__________________ Land of the free, home of the brave...
Do you think we will ever be saved?
In this land of dreams find myself sober...
Wonder when will it'll all be over...
Living in a void when the void grows colder...
Wonder when it'll all be over?
Will you be laughing when it's over?
batman in my opinion is tooooo overrated. yes i agree that with prep time batman can pretty much hold his own with most earth superheroes, but having wonder woman as a sparring partner?
batman for me is possibly the most unbelievable character ever created. at least when you give someone powers they have a good excuse to be able to do the things they do. but for super smart, super rich, peak human athlete to be able to go toe to toe with superman and wonderwoman........ i know a dozen people will probably pounce on me for this, but i really think batman is much too overrated. i still think batman cud beat wolverine tho.
Oh, Batman did lose to Wonder Woman when they went toe to toe for real in A League of One (sans prep time). I'm just pointing out that they're not totally mismatched (even in that story, it was a pretty good fight).
__________________ "Men curse the Communist Party, but eventually it may release them. If hell were endless, then God would be worse than our Secret Police."--Pastor Valentin
that's why i think batman is too overrated. don't get me wrong, i like batman a whole lot more than either superman or wonderwoman, but i really think its so f*ckin impossible how he's able to compete with powerhouses like them. i mean fighting toe to toe? im sorry, i know you won't agree with me, but it kinda pisses me off to see batman get so buffed up more than what is possible.
Just in case some people were confused (like me a lot), this is Batgirl aka Cassandra Cain, not Batgirl aka Barbara Gordon. Molded by her dad David Cain to predict an enemy's attacks, she was denied verbal stimuli. Shiva re-trained her after she gained communication skills but lost a bit of her combat skills.
I know you probably knew that but Cassandra is relatively new to people who don't follow comics and are still thinking Barbara as Batgirl (ie., animated series depiction).
ahhahah yea, there's no way Batman can do all the things comics allow him to do...and STILL, say "he's just human." But that's what makes him so popular. It's quite the impossible contradiction.
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May 19th, 2004 07:51 PM
