Registered: Mar 2005
Location: Your mother Should Know
I couldn't have said it better myself. I've never been able to get a hold on the books about thrawn, but Revan I htink is better, what he did, I don't think anyone even had the knowledge, or courage to do.
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Grand Admiral Thrawn and Darth Revan are both tactical geniuses. But I believe it is relative bias from particular people that makes them select Revan. Another reason is that whereas I have read the Thrawn Trilogy and KOTOR games - and I understand both well - most people have not.
I thought Fishy and Emperor Revan said that Revan's fleet was superior to The Empire's? If that is true, then think here. If Revan's empire was truly superior to Palpatine's - Thrawn got just as close as Revan did to galactic domination - and had only a SMALL percentage of the Imperial Starfleet, whereas Revan had the entire damn thing.
Though Thrawn is hardly a match for the Dark Lord, he is tactically superior. Thrawn commanded a mere portion of the fledgling Imperial fleet and managed to nearly conquer the Republic. It was also stated in the Thrawn Trilogy that The Republic's forces were "a lot better trained and motivated than the Empire's."
Whereas in KOTOR - Revan's men were skilled on a level perhaps greater than the Old Republic.
Thrawn's fleet was a little smaller, less trained, and not as motivated as the New Republic. But his genius was unparalleled. No one in the Republic could best him tactically.
He got as close as Revan did to conquering the galaxy, with a HELL of a lot LESS resources and firepower than what Revan had.
Think about it. All of this evidence supports my theory. Thrawn is without a shadow of a doubt tactically superior to Darth Revan.
Firstly, I am slightly biased towards Revan I will admit, but if I seriously think Revan will win or lose, I will say so without hesitation.
I must wonder if you even read my other post, since you didn't respond to my points at all.
1. Here are the main ones if you're too lazy to read. Thrawn's army and the Republic army had about the same forces, Han Solo says so himself.
2. Thrawn had Joruus and his battle meditation to aid him.
3. Revan on the other hand turned losing war factions into powerful armies that could turn the tide. The Republic army had more than double his forces yet he immediately started winning.
4. His forces were up AGAINST battle meditation which is the ONLY reason the Republic even survived.
5. The jedi council, the Exchange leaders, Mandalorians, the Echani, anyone who ever faced or knew Revan said he was a brilliant strategist.
Read my other post, I stated quite a few GOOD reasons why I think Revan would win. If anyone is a fanboy here it's you because you seem to think Revan has no chance whatsoever and you are wrong for that. I even said Thrawn could come close in my other post. Now, do us all a favor and read some of my other posts and it will become apparent that even in a close fight I don't always go with Revan if I don't think he will win.
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Registered: May 2005
Location: .::The Anti-Fanboy Confederation::.
Revans army had
a) infinite amount of ships
b) troops with more battle experience
c) tons of Jedi / Sith
That "1/3 of the republics army" only referes to the "normal" troops he had, not including any force users (since the Jedi / Sith forces are independent from the republic army) or ships from the star forge.
Now for Thrawn:
Maybe (if you want to rely on Solos statement) they had about the same forces. But you have to keep in mind that most of the New Republic forces are veterans from the war against the empire. The "officers" as well as the "normal" starfighter pilots or ground forces.
We don't know how much that thing aided him. Still he has proven his military genius in times before he knew Joruus.
Look at what I've written about point 1.
Well...Thrawn was fighting against the New Republic. That includes people like: Admiral Ackbar, Carlist Rieekan, Jan Dodonna, Bren Derlin (military command), Lando Calrissian, Han Solo, Luke Skywalker and starfighter pilots like Wedge Antilles.
That are at least people that survived 6-9 years of constant battle including the Galactic Civil War, the truce at Bakura, the Bacta War and several battles vs. Imperial Warlords (Ysanne Isard, Zsinj).
Not to mention that Thrawn was only stopped because the Noghri switched sides during a battle and his own bodyguard assasinated him.
And we are actualy talking about "tactical skills". So think of Revan without his force powers and his battle-precog.
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"Dear God, what is it like in your funny little brains?"
a) not until the end of his reign.
b) thanks to Revan
c) thanks to Revan
the 1/3 of the republic army was just troops I know, but there was not even the entire third of his army left by the end of the mandalorian war, then he goes up against the Republic which has roughly double or more forces and all of those dark jedi he turned with tactics.
I suppose all of the imperials Thrawn had had never seen a battle before too right? Sure some were new but he still had some veterans in there and they weren't as inexperienced as you're laying on.
Next, Joruus' battle meditation is very effective and yes we do know about it. This is coming directly from an imperial admiral that didn't even want to believe battle meditation was possible. "In every single category and subcategory of speed, coordination, efficiency, and accuracy, the Chimaera and its crew were running no less than 40 percent more effective than usual. He turned to look at C'baoth's strained face, an icy shiver running up his back." Oh and Thrawn hadn't been in too many battles before Joruus.
Revan's forces on the other hand, was all but invincible and would've triumphed much sooner if not for Bastila's battle meditation according to Master Dorak. Revan is up against larger forces (ok, we can really cut that out since he started with weaker forces, but gained more from the Star Forge so it balances out kinda to more like equal forces IMO.) and he was against battle meditation whereas Thrawn was using battle meditation. Next, Revan was a tactical genius partially because of the fact that he turned so many to his cause. More Jedi turned to his side than died from his forces. Republic officers were joining him right and left as well.
Revan was the sole reason the Republic (losing side) managed to turn the war around and beat the Mandalorians. Listen to Canderous talk about his tactics again. Feints, Counterattacks, mass deceptions, he was a genius on the field. He would abandon whole worlds so that other's would be too fortified to strike. In the end, he proved too much for them. He fought them to a standstill and then began pushing them back. Even Mandalore himself was taken back by the ferocity of his attacks, the tenacity of his tactics, and the subtlety of his plans.
And lastly, I haven't mentioned anything about Force powers and only once said he could predict entire wars which I guess you could take that away even though it's not a Force trait and non-force users can do it.
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Registered: May 2005
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Can somebody without any force powers talk several hundret Jedi into following him ? No. Could Revan do that without force powers. No ! Does that count in the term of "tactics" ? No.
Even the veterans in the imperial army are sometimes stupid as hell. And please think of it: The Empire had far greater troops than the Alliance so they won't have that much people left with battle experience (Not if you think of how easy they go down.)
Oh great. One ship being 40 % more effective ? What does that decide ? And Thrawn hadn't been in too many battle before Joruus ? Well he had to become Grand Admiral somehow now doesn't he ?
That is no tactic...it's persuation or diplomacy and Thrawn hadn't even the opportunity to do so.
Abandon whole worlds...well...for being brutal and ruthless: Did you ever came across the "Ghorman Massacre" ? Tarkin landed a spaceship on a group of protesters killing hundrets of them. Reason: They were protesting against Imperial taxation.
And there was also that nice thing called "Tarkin Doctrine": "Rule through the fear of force, rather than force itself." That is the standard operation procedure of the Imperial Navy (result: the Death Star).
Now...just think a little bit. Thrawn rose threw the ranks of the Imperial Navy fast. He was a heir to the Tarkin Doctrine but had greater tactical abilities than anyone else in the Imperial Navy.
When it comes to "ground combat" Revan might be actualy better in tactics than Thrawn is but in a space battle I would bet on Thrawn.
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"Dear God, what is it like in your funny little brains?"
Can somebody without any force powers talk several hundret Jedi into following him ? No. Could Revan do that without force powers. No ! Does that count in the term of "tactics" ? No.
(My response) He did it mostly through tactics, some he lured to Malachor V which corrupted them, he made teams of people designed to capture Jedi and send them to a place to break them, according to Master Vrook some of the Jedi left because of Sith promises of riches and power. No, it wasn't all tactics but some of it was. Listen to how many ways HK-47 knows to kill a Jedi, those are all tactics and they all came from Revan.
Even the veterans in the imperial army are sometimes stupid as hell. And please think of it: The Empire had far greater troops than the Alliance so they won't have that much people left with battle experience (Not if you think of how easy they go down.)
(My response) They had far more people than the Rebels so more chances of tacticians, who created the Sun Crusher? The galaxy Gun? World devastators? The Eclipse star destroyer? All imperials. Now granted imperials were often rather stupid but we have no way of comparing that to either of the forces in Revan's time either.
Oh great. One ship being 40 % more effective ? What does that decide ? And Thrawn hadn't been in too many battle before Joruus ? Well he had to become Grand Admiral somehow now doesn't he ?
(My response) First, it wasn't just the one ship. It was the whole battle and it was totally because of Joruus. How many Grand moffs were there? About 4 in the stupid kid books which are unfortunately canon and Tarkin of course. It's just a rank and obviously he had to have been good but we don't know anything about how he got there or as many battles as Revan. So Thrawn was a Grand Admiral. He wasn't even at the battle of Endor. Revan had direct control over a third of the Republic fleet within a couple years of fighting.
That is no tactic...it's persuation or diplomacy and Thrawn hadn't even the opportunity to do so.
(My response) No Thrawn didn't have the opportunity to turn jedi, but it's much harder than regular troops and Revan did use some tactics to do this as previously explained.
Abandon whole worlds...well...for being brutal and ruthless: Did you ever came across the "Ghorman Massacre" ? Tarkin landed a spaceship on a group of protesters killing hundrets of them. Reason: They were protesting against Imperial taxation.
And there was also that nice thing called "Tarkin Doctrine": "Rule through the fear of force, rather than force itself." That is the standard operation procedure of the Imperial Navy (result: the Death Star).
(My response) The movies sorta say it's the geonosians who made the Death Star but I liked the EU version more too.
Now...just think a little bit. Thrawn rose threw the ranks of the Imperial Navy fast. He was a heir to the Tarkin Doctrine but had greater tactical abilities than anyone else in the Imperial Navy.
(My response) Yes, so? you yourself said how stupid the imperials were. Revan was the greatest tactician of his time just like Thrawn.
When it comes to "ground combat" Revan might be actualy better in tactics than Thrawn is but in a space battle I would bet on Thrawn.
(My response) You might be right there, we don't know much about Revan's space tactics but surely during the two wars there were some space battles and Revan's tactics are spoken of highly throughout both games by everyone who mentions them so there's really no reason he would be bad at space tactics either IMO.
Darth Somebody: In addition to what I said in my previous response to you, Revan is really good at just about everything he does that has any correlation to power or might. Whether it's his power, potential, tactics, abilities, knowledge, or combat experience he excels greatly at it and we have seen no real flaws from him which is a big factor why I think he's so great.
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Darth Revan is still not a god. He is not the best at everything he does. I swear. In every versus mode, you say he always comes out on top. In everythread where *Revan* is involved - you say he's the best. And it is because of people like you that I hate NJO Luke and Darth Revan.
Darth Revan is a superb tactition. But not the best. I have said it before and I will say it again, Thrawn had far less than what Revan had, and got just as close to victory.
Nai Fohl and I have both offered you points that trump Revan's. Grand Admiral Thrawn is the superior tactition.
When Revan started his war he didn't have a lot either. Actually he had a weakened flete and still faced powerful strategicians (Kavar) or at least he should have. He faced people that had seen a lot of war already and were reasonable on their own. Of course Revan knew them and their weaknesses which helps him but does not mean he was any less. He had weaker and less troops in his first war and turned around. Without Revan the entire galaxy would be speaking Mandelorian.
Then he came back and he did not have the Star Forge back then and definitly not the troops to man them. If he would not have brilliant he would not have beaten the Republic back that far and he would not have had the troops to fill the infinite fleet a lot of time later.
Not everything he does can be attributed to the force and the Star Forge, without he still would have won. The only reason the Republic stood was because of battle meditation.
But would Revan defeat Thrawn? I have no idea, from what I have heard Thrawn was pretty good to.
And honestly you can't compare the two, you can't say anything about people like that.
Just look at a good debate between who's better, Hanibal Barca or Julius Caesar or Scipio Africanus or Alexander the great. I've seen debates reaching into the hundreds of pages and people still can't decide who wins. To many factors come in play here. To find a greater strategician is almost impossible. And if somebody here can say for sure, then I say you are lying and biased because you just can't know.
Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Hiding from zombies
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Or does anyone reas my posts? You can't directly compare them with the information we have here, and realisitically you can NEVER directly compare any two leaders or generals unless they were, by some fluke of nature, set in the same exact situations with the same exact resources. Let me make some points that we do know:
- We know the results of Revan's campaigns in the Mandalorian Wars and the War of the Star Forge shortly after. Whether or not he fought wars afterwards we do not know yet.
- We know the results of Thrawn's campaigns against the New Republic.
- We know that the Old Republic had rather inferior technology on some levels and much smaller ships.
- We know of each's reputation for strategy: in short, both were unparelleled geniuses in their own times.
So from this point on it's just a pissing contest. And, of course, Revan's reputation on this board hurts him no matter who spews forth compliments, so forget that.
But for my singular piece of opinion, I would think that Mandalorians, capable of glassing entire worlds and taking most of the Outer Rim in six years are a hell of a lot deadlier than the New Republic. Of course, as Dennis Miller says, I couold be wrong.
You're a stupid noob that doesn't know crap about other people. First, I have NEVER said Revan is best at everything, just really good at most things that somehow involve power and in a one on one fight I do always say Revan will win but I'm sure not the only one. Many people do to and I always back up my reasons. Now you idiotic liar, look at some other posts before you pretend to know someone because in team fights there are many cases even in close fights when I think Revan's team will lose.
Now nooby, you either didn't bother to read my entire debate full of good reasons why Revan would win or you're too much of a fanboy that you won't even respond to the arguments and post false claims that Revan had a larger army and have NOTHING ELSE TO SUPPORT IT. I have posted dozens of reasons backing up my opinion and you haven't. Gosh, I hate noobs.
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Thanks to Janus for the great Sig.
Fan boy? Quite the opposite. I've supported Revan in legitimate arguments where I believe he would come out superior. And in others, I state otherwise. But yes, you do make him out to be a god. To deny it would be lying. At least from my perception you do. You refer to him as the smartest Sith Lord. The most powerful Sith Lord. The greatest Sith Lord. You do make him out to be quite the god, Revan. And notice how I expressed my argument without resorting to namecalling. I just suppose it's a lack of able argument on your part.
Okay instead of going on about calling each other noobs and forgetting about the entire debate you might want to consider going back to the debate.
anyways like Janus and I have both said already you can not decide the winner in this fight. You just can not.
For anybody that wants to continue this debate at least do so with facts. And don't get pissed off because I can Gaurentee you that you will never ever reach a conclusion about who is a winner.
This thing is a stalemate at best. The only way Revan would really win is if he excersized Battle Meditation. Of course, Thrawn is not a Force user, so it could be adept to cheating. Of course, Imperials are as cunning and evil as Sith Lords - so cheating can't be a bad thing.
I'd have to say this is one battle where Revan very well might not come out on top. Like Janus said. If he did win, it would be incredibly difficult. I see no room for ownage on Revan's part or on Thrawn's.
Thats because there isn't any. You can simply not compare military skills, its hard enough to compare how people would fight against each other but to compare military skills? Its just impossible.
Kudos for being calm. Now, I do think he's possibly the smartest sith lord, having plundered tons of knowledge from the Jedi, Malachor V, and Korriban which all 3 places were soon destroyed later. The most powerful, yes I do think he is. Is that fanboyism? No, I have many reasons backing up my opinion and many many others think that to. Greatest Sith lord? No, but coolest. Palpatine is the greatest IMO simply because he took full control of the galaxy.
Next, if I think the fight between Revan and someone else is close I will admit it. I think Revan would have a really hard time against NJO Luke but would barely come out on top after a really close fight.
Next, you haven't presented a twentieth of the argument I have and I said Thrawn could still beat Revan while you said Thrawn is totally superior. And you think I'm a fanboy?
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After reading these threads I realize that you cannot compaire the two. So I have a better idea...
Lets say that Tharwn and Revan were both thrust into the same exact tactical situation, given the same resorces and same level of recon. Who would be able to use the previously stated above to the best exent?
You're entitled to your opinion, Emperor Revan. But again, you seem to be quite irrational and arrogant at times. Do remember. Darth Revan may be cool. But no one needs to make him out to be more than he is. The same for NJO Luke. They are both amazingly powerful. But it is difficult to compare them to others. Like Revan vs Sidious. You can't compare to eachother how they fight.
There really is no proof to establish which Sith Lord or Jedi can best eachother unless they truly fight. You see, in the versus mode, it is all one-hundred percent fan speculation. Even on my part. Unless they fight - and we see it - we truly do not know.
Jul 20th, 2005 02:44 AM
