I had the impression that Elton John didn't even write a lot of his music?
(good) Rappers use far more literary devices than most rock singers just because of the nature of what they're doing—the words become the whole point of the song when there's no melody involved.
Steve Vai could show you all the guitar techniques in the world, way more than Hendrix. He's not a better guitarist.
Example in hip hop: Canibus. The man pulls out about a million different techniques in every song, it doesn't change the fact that he's just leaning heavily on a thesaurus. He's not saying anything that he couldn't say simpler if he wanted to. That's just impressive vocabulary and technique, it doesn't equate to being good literature or writing.
No hip hop lyricist comes close to people like Chris Cornell, Maynard James Keenan, Mike Patton, Jason Lyttle, Jacob Bannon or Stephen Brodsky. If of course we're judging on RELEVANT literary techniques used and not just showing off.
Rivers Cuomo of Weezer has an English degree from Harvard, if he wanted to he could beat out any lyricist in terms of devices. It was to my understanding that we were judging quality content, not technical content. Because to be fair, anyone with a grasp of advanced English and the dictionary can do that.
The difference between the best hip hop lyricists and the best rock lyricists is that as Revan said, the nature of what MCs do demands that they force themselves to twist things up. It's not needed in rock, so when it happens (Maynard for example) it's natural and that shows quite clearly who the better lyricists are.
No hip hop MC could write the lyrics to Mind Riot, Parabola or such. That's a generalisation but it does also happen to be true which gives it that extra zazz.
It's not to each their own unless we're discussing what we prefer. If we're discussing what genre has the better lyricists it's provable.
By relevancy I mean not going out of your way to come across as intelligent in your lyrics. By using fancy vocab or trying to discuss subjects that you think will make you look smart. Lot's of "smart" hip hop MCs do this. Maynard never does. Even the best hip hop MCs like Doom, who may very well not attempt to look intelligent but are, don't produce lyrics on par with the material Maynard comes up with.
Can any of us seriously say that a hip hop MC could write Parabola, Reflection, Third Eye, Lateralus or any of those? No.
Chris Cornell uses a lot of imagery in his lyrics, most notably the recent song Doesn't Remind Me. I'm not saying hip hop MCs don't use imagery but it's never pulled off as well.
There was a case where a university professor used Maynard's lyrics in a lecture. I don't remember MF Doom or any of hip hop's elite having that accolade.
That's not what we're discussing though is it? We're not discussing who can show off. We're discussing what genre has the better lyricists.
To imply that hip hop has anyone remotely close to being able to challenge rock's best is hilarity of the highest order.
"With vice I hold the mike device
With force I keep it away of course
And I'm keepin' you from sleepin'
And on stage I rage
And I'm rollin'
To the poor I pour in on in metaphors
Not bluffin', it's nothin'
That we ain't did before
We played you stayed
The points made
You consider it done
By the prophets of rage
(Power of the people say)
I roll with the punches so I survive
Try to rock 'cause it keeps the crowd alive
I'm not ballin', I'm just callin'
But I'm past the days of yes y'allin'
Wa wiggle round and round
I pump, you jump up
Hear my words my verbs
And get juiced up
I been around a while
You can descibe my sound
Clear the way
For the prophets of rage
(Power of the people say)
I rang ya bell
Can you tell I got feelin'
Just peace at least
Cause I want it
Want it so bad
That I'm starvin'
I'm like Garvey
So you can see B
It's like that, I'm like Nat
Leave me the hell alone
If you don't think I'm a brother
Then check the chromosomes
Then check the stage
I declare it a new age
Get down for the prophets of rage
Keep you from gettin' like this
You back the track
You find we're the quotable
You emulate
Brothers, sisters thats beautiful
Follow a path
Of positivity you go
Some sing it or rap it
Or harmonize it through Go-Go
Little you know but very
Seldom I do party jams
About a plan
I'm considered the man
I'm the recordable
But God made it affordable
I say it, you play it
Back in your car or even portable
Stereo
Describes my scenario
Left or right, Black or White
They tell lies in the books
That you're readin'
It's knowledge of yourself
That you're needin'
Like Vescey or Prosser
We have a reason why
To debate the hate
That's why we're born to die
Mandela, cell dweller, Thatcher
You can tell her clear the way for the prophets of rage
(Power of the people you say)
It's raw and keepin' you on the floor
Its soul and keepin' you in control
It's pt. 2 cause I'm
Pumpin' what you're used to
Until the whole juice crew
Gets me in my goose down
I do the rebel yell
And I'm the duracell
Call it plain insane
Brothers causein' me pain
When a brothers a victim
And the sellers a dweller in a cage
Yo, run the a capella
(Power of the people say)"
Chuck D's on Prophets of Rage by Public Enemy.. Incredible.
"To tha young r to tha e tha b to tha e tha l
Never give up just live up
Fed upon America
We be spittin' it up
Rippin' it up
For an even amount in each cup
To my brothers burning bare feet on black top
Whose curled 'neath tha shadows
From tha gaze of tha cops
Whose huntin' for 9 to 5's through factory locks
Is now hunted on this modern day auction block
Mic Check, ha ha ha
I be the anti-myth rhythm rock shocker
Mic Check, ha ha ha ha
I be the anti-myth rhythm rock shocker, what?
Mic Check, ha ha ha
I be the anti-myth rhythm rock shocker
Mic Check, ha ha ha ha
I be the anti-myth rhythm rock shocker, what?
Check check check check the check, oh
packin
Flexin' and mashin'
With complex text
Fast and in a fashion
That snap back necks
Quicker than a fed cash tha company checks
Come with tha fire only Marley could catch
This be tha flame in tha cellar beware
Nameless cold millions gaspin' for air
Those naked and wageless
Now scream within cages
What, they make you pull your shit
Just to get your share, what?
Mic Check, ha ha ha
I be the anti-myth rhythm rock shocker
Mic Check, ha ha ha ha
I be the anti-myth rhythm rock shocker, what?
Mic Check, ha ha ha
I be the anti-myth rhythm rock shocker
Mic Check, ha ha ha ha
I be the anti-myth rhythm rock shocker, what?
Welcome down with the warrior sound, UGH!
With this mic device
I spit nonfiction
Who got tha power
This be my question
Tha mass of tha few in this torn nation?
Tha priest tha book or tha congregation?
Tha politricks who rob and hold down your zone?
Or those who give tha thieves tha key to their homes?
Tha pig who's free to murder one Shucklak
Or survivors who make a move and murder one back?
This mic device
I spit nonfiction
Who got tha power
This be my question
Tha mass of tha few in this torn nation?
Tha priest tha book or tha congregation?
Tha politricks who rob and hold down your zone?
Or those who give tha thieves tha key to their homes?
Tha pig who's free to murder one Shucklak
Or survivors who make a move and murder one back?
Mic Check, ha ha ha
I be the anti-myth rhythm rock shocker
Mic Check, ha ha ha ha
I be the anti-myth rhythm rock shocker, what?
Mic Check, ha ha ha
I be the anti-myth rhythm rock shocker
Mic Check, ha ha ha ha
I be the anti-myth rhythm rock shocker, what?"
Zack De La Rocha from Mic Check by Rage Against the Machine.
"My mother said, "You sucked my pussy when you came out
Don't ever talk back
I handed your life and I'll snatch it back"
I'm just a latch key kid with a snotty nose
High school drop out
Space, I'm around me whiteout
And I ain't dealin with no minimum wage
I'd rather construct rhymes on a minimum page
Cynical ways, cats sin for nickels these days
Pulling the chrome out
And you actin like pullin the chrome out
Hated the sound of grandma's cryin the crooked letter
You could hear it from the ground or when the sky thunders
Made you wonder 'bout early
Sunday morning
Relatives dressed in black and they all mourning
Flows be bangin in the paint, throwin elbows
My first fight was me against five boroughs
I lost my first witch
But remembered every detail of my first kiss
That's that Bronx Tale bliss
The holiest of holies
Hip hop, it was '88
Even at the age of 10, phrases levitate
Drinkin Lil' Hug quarter waters
Dodgin stray slugs on the corner in that exact order
While you playin, death is what happens
I found the passion in aerosol cans and hands clappin
Backspins, microphones and cats rappin
Linoleum and up rockers, the show shockers
Who rip Lee patches off of imposters
You ain't the Real McCoy, you a wind up toy
And it's gonna cost ya
And that's my B-Boy Alpha"
Vast Aire's verse from B-Boy Alpha by Cannibal Ox.
So that's some of what I'd consider to be the cream of hip hop lyricism.
Here's the rock side:
"We barely remember who or what came before this precious moment,
We are Choosing to be here right now. Hold on, stay inside...
This holy reality, this holy experience. Choosing to be here in...
This body. This body holding me. Be my reminder here that I am not alone in
This body, this body holding me, feeling eternal all this pain is an illusion.
Alive
This holy reality, in this holy experience. Choosing to be here in...
This body. This body holding me. Be my reminder here that I am not alone in
This body, this body holding me, feeling eternal all this pain is an illusion...
Of what it means to be alive
Swirling round with this familiar parable.
Spinning, weaving round each new experience.
Recognize this as a holy gift and celebrate this
chance to be alive and breathing
chance to be alive and breathing.
This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality.
Embrace this moment. Remember. we are eternal.
all this pain is an illusion."
Maynard James Keenan's lyrics from Parabola by Tool.
"I was slipping through the cracks
Of a stolen jewel
I was tightrope
Walking in two ton shoes
Now somebody is talking about a
Third world war
And the police said this was normal control
And the candle was burning yesterday
Like somebody's best friend died
And I've been caught in a mind riot
I was crying from my eye teeth and
Bleeding from my soul
And I sharpened my wits on a dead man's skull
I built an elevator from his bones
Had to climb to the top floor just
To stamp out the coals
And the candle was burning yesterday
Like somebody's best friend died
And I've been caught in a mind riot
I'm tied within
I'm luck's last match struck
In the pouring down wind"
Chris Cornell's lyrics from Mind Riot by Soundgarden.
"Awaken from the bliss of sleep
The daybreak haunts you in such a subtle light
I hear them. they tell me these roads we have travelled fork up beyond the bend
Beneath the flutter of desperate wings
they sing a song of reclamation
Where tomorrow's hanging horizon
interrupts the hum of electrical towers
Here, there are the shallow graves, the shallower romances
and the shallowest of words still to be spoken
and there you are with open ears
Locust reign on your parade"
Jacob Bannon's lyrics from Locust Reign by Converge.
"And we continue to chase the sun
Only to burn up both our hands
And we will find out what's to know . . .
In warning winds the truth will blow
You might feel I'm feeling all the guilt
Dragging out the hours, all deceived
Well, both are harmless and haunting to me
Now remember your heroes
As a cancel out zero
Like you were young again
A man you haven't seen in years
Ressurecting your deepest fears
Returns a favor unto himself . . .
By turning us the other cheek
You're just a coat of red in hell.
You might feel I'm feeling all the guilt
And now remember your heroes
As a cancel out zero
You were never the one to break away
Dragging out the hours, all deceived
Now remember your heroes
As a cancel out zero
You were never the one to break free
Who turned your eyes away?
Who turned your eyes to grey?
You're another coat of red in hell.
Kill this child to make sure I'd raise him well.
On a concrete road to recovery
While I'm knocking over every road cone
In front of me."
Stephen Brodsky's lyrics from Big Riff by Cave In.
A hip hop MC can rhyme and thesaurus his way through a song all he wants. He won't be able to compete with those men for lyricism and ability. Those are just one song each, I could go on forever.
Just as great literature can encompass such diverse pieces as the perplexing 'Ulysses' and the simple, beauty of 'The Great Gatsby', so too can great examples of lyrical expression.
One man's 'Parabola' does not beat another's 'Prophets of Rage', just because one conforms to the more rigid definition of what is 'literary'.
Literature and lyricism are both forms of expression. Expression is an individual concept shared with others, therefore arguing over which genre of lyrical expression is better is moot. There is no better or worse, just different forms that appeal to different people.
__________________ Full fathom five thy father lies;
Of his bones are coral made;
Those are pearls that were his eyes:
Nothing of him that doth fade
But doth suffer a sea-change
Into something rich and strange.
When I say that hip hop lyricists use more literary devices, I mean that they are more skilled at putting together words in a specific order for the purpose of making the phrase sound good in a very literal sense. I would argue that rock lyricists are better than rappers simply because it's impossible to even compare rock lyrics with hip hop lyrics. It's like comparing Tool and Debussy.
For example—you could argue that the lyrics to "Parabola" are "better" than the lyrics to a Blackalicious song, and if you were speaking strictly in terms of meaning and how much literary interpretation could be applied to each, you would probably be right. However, I can guarantee you that virtually no rock lyricist could perfectly rhyme every other two/three syllable word in four seperate lines and have it actually be coherent, the way Gift of Gab sometimes does. At least not without spending a hell of a long time doing it. And not only that, but I've seen GoG freestyle and his rhymes are equally perfect and complex then, and he does it twice as fast as most people can even talk clearly. If anyone attempts to claim that doing so doesn't take talent, or that Maynard (as much as I respect him) could do it, I suggest they get their head out of their ass.
The point you are quite clearly missing is that I'm pointing out, as you already said, that the lyrics of Maynard and rock's other great lyricists are more ladvanced in the literary sense than hip hop's. I'm not trying to say hip hop's best don't have talent, I'm not claiming any less of MCs which has seem to be the misconception/
Elton John doesn't write the lyrics. He writes all the music. But, the lyrics are written by Bernie Taupin, and Elton writes the music afterwards. It has been this way for 30+ years. Elton wrote Rocketman in about 15 minutes.
__________________ "If I were you"
"If you were me, you'd know the safest place to hide...is in sanity!
Gender: Male Location: Sailing the seas of cheese.
Bob Dylan pretty much wrote every song ever made.
Abandoned Love
Absolutely Sweet Marie..... [Japanese]
Ain't A-Gonna Grieve
Ain't No Man Righteous
Alberta (#1 and #2)
All Along The Watchtower..... [Japanese]
All I Really Want To Do
All Over You
All The Tired Horses
Angelina
Apple Suckling Tree
Are You Ready
Arthur McBride
As I Went Out One Morning
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B
Baby, I'm In The Mood For You
Baby, Stop Crying
Ballad For A Friend
Ballad In Plain D
Ballad Of A Thin Man..... [Japanese]
Ballad Of Donald White
Ballad Of Frankie Lee And Judas Priest
Ballad Of Hollis Brown
Band Of The Hand
Belle Isle
Billy..... [Japanese]
Black Crow Blues
Black Diamond Bay
Blackjack Davey
Blind Willie McTell
Blood In My Eyes
Blowin' In The Wind..... [Japanese]
Bob Dylan's 115th Dream
Bob Dylan's Blues
Bob Dylan's Dream..... [Japanese]
Bob Dylan's New Orleans Rag
Boots Of Spanish Leather
Born In Time
Broke Down Engine
Brownsville Girl
Buckets Of Rain
Bunkhouse Theme
Bye And Bye
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C
California
Call Letter Blues
Can You Please Crawl Out Your Window?
Canadee-I-O
Can't Wait
Cantina Theme (Workin' For The Law)
Caribbean Wind
Catfish
Cat's In The Well
Changing Of The Guards
Chimes Of Freedom
Clean Cut Kid
Clothes Line Saga
Cold Irons Bound
Coming From The Heart
Corrina, Corrina
Country Pie
Covenant Woman
Cover Down, Break Through
Cry A While
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D
Dark Eyes
Day Of The Locusts..... [Japanese]
Dead Man, Dead Man
Dear Landlord..... [Japanese]
Death Is Not The End
Death Of Emmett Till, The
Delia
Denise
Desolation Row..... [Japanese]
Diamond Joe
Dignity
Dirge
Dirt Road Blues
Disease Of Conceit
Do Right To Me Baby
Don't Fall Apart On Me Tonight
Don't Think Twice, It's All Right
Don't Ya Tell Henry
Down Along The Cove
Down In The Flood
Down The Highway
Drifter's Escape
Driftin' Too Far From Shore
Dusty Fairgrounds
[Top of this Page]
Gender: Male Location: Sailing the seas of cheese.
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E
Emotionally Yours
Eternal Circle
Every Grain Of Sand
Everything Is Broken
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F
Farewell
Farewell, Angelina
Father Of Night
Final Theme
Floater (Too Much To Ask)
Foot Of Pride
Forever Young..... [Japanese]
Fourth Time Around
Frankie And Albert
Freight Train Blues
Froggie Went A-Courtin'
From A Buick 6
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G
Gates Of Eden
George Jackson
Get Your Rocks Off!
Girl Of The North Country..... [Japanese]
Go 'Way Little Boy
God Knows
Going, Going, Gone..... [Japanese]
Goin' To Acapulco
Golden Loom
Gonna Change My Way Of Thinking
Gospel Plow
Got My Mind Made Up
Gotta Serve Somebody
Groom's Still Waiting At The Altar, The
Guess I'm Doin' Fine
Gypsy Lou
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H
Had A Dream About You, Baby
Handy Dandy
Hard Rain's A-Gonna Fall, A
Hard Times
Hard Times In New York Town
Hazel
He Was A Friend Of Mine
Heart Of Mine
Heartland
Hero Blues
High Water (For Chaley Patton)
Highlands
Highway 61 Revisited
Honest With Me
House Carpenter
House Of The Risin' Sun
Hurricane
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I
I Am A Lonesome Hobo
I And I
I Believe In You
I Don't Believe You
I Dreamed I Saw St. Augustine
I Pity The Poor Immigrant
I Shall Be Free
I Shall Be Free No.10
I Shall Be Released..... [Japanese]
I Threw It All Away
I Wanna Be Your Lover
I Want You..... [Japanese]
Idiot Wind
If Dogs Run Free
If I Don't Be There By Morning
If Not For You..... [Japanese]
If You Gotta Go, Go Now
If You See Her, Say Hello
In Search Of Little Sadie
In The Garden
In The Summertime
Is Your Love In Vain?
Isis
It Ain't Me, Babe
It Hurts Me Too
It Takes A Lot To Laugh, It Takes A Train To Cry
It's All Over Now, Baby Blue..... [Japanese]
It's Alright, Ma
I'd Hate To Be You On That Dreadful Day
I'd Have You Any Time
I'll Be Your Baby Tonight
I'll Keep It With Mine..... [Japanese]
I'll Remember You
[Top of this Page]
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J
Jack-A-Roe
Jet Pilot
Jim Jones
Joey
John Brown
John Wesley Harding
Jokerman
Just Allow Me One More Chance
Just Like A Woman..... [Japanese]
Just Like Tom Thumb's Blues
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K
Kingsport Town
Knockin' On Heaven's Door..... [Japanese]
[Top of this Page]
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L
Last Thoughts On Woody Guthrie
Lay Down Your Weary Tune
Lay, Lady, Lay
Legionnaire's Disease
Lenny Bruce
Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat
Let Me Die In My Footsteps
Let's Keep It Between Us
License To Kill
Like A Rolling Stone..... [Japanese]
Lily, Rosemary And The Jack Of Hearts
Little Maggie
Little Sadie
Living The Blues
Lo And Behold!
Lone Pilgrim
Lonesome Day Blues
Lonesome Death Of Hattie Carroll, The
Long Ago, Far Away
Long Distance Operator
Long Time Gone
Lord Protect My Child
Love Henry
Love Is Just A Four Letter Word
Love Minus Zero/No Limit..... [Japanese]
Love Sick
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M
Maggie's Farm
Main Title Theme (Billy)
Make You Feel My Love
Mama, You Been On My Mind
Man Gave Names To All The Animals
Man In Me, The
Man In The Long Black Coat
Man Of Constant Sorrow
Man Of Peace
Man On The Street
Masters Of War
Maybe Someday
Meet Me In The Morning
Million Dollar Bash
Million Miles
Minstrel Boy
Mississippi
Mixed-Up Confusion
Money Blues
Moonlight
Moonshiner
Most Likely You Go Your Way
Most Of The Time
Motorpsycho Nitemare
Mozambique
Mr. Tambourine Man..... [Japanese]
My Back Pages
[Top of this Page]
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N
Nashville Skyline Rag
Need A Woman
Neighborhood Bully
Never Gonna Be The Same Again
Never Say Goodbye
New Morning
New Pony
Night After Night
No Time To Think
No More Auction Block
Nobody 'Cept You
North Country Blues
Not Dark Yet
Nothing Was Delivered
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O
Obviously 5 Believers
Odds And Ends
Oh, Sister
On A Night Like This
On The Road Again
One More Cup Of Coffee..... [Japanese]
One More Night
One More Weekend
One Of Us Must Know
One Too Many Mornings
Only A Hobo
Only A Pawn In Their Game
Open The Door, Homer
Outlaw Blues
Oxford Town
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P
Paths Of Victory
Peggy Day
Percy's Song
Playboys And Playgirls
Please, Mrs. Henry
Pledging My Time
Po' Boy
Political World
Poor Boy Blues
Positively 4th Street
Precious Angel
Precious Memories
Pressing On
Property Of Jesus
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Q
Queen Jane Approximately..... [Japanese]
Quinn, The Eskimo
Quit Your Low Down Ways
[Top of this Page]
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R
Ragged & Dirty
Rainy Day Women #12 & 35
Rambling, Gambling Willie
Restless Farewell
Ring Them Bells..... [Japanese]
Rita May
River Theme
Rocks And Gravel (Solid Road)
Romance In Durango
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S
Sad Eyed Lady Of The Lowlands
Santa-Fe
Sara
Sarah Jane
Saved
Saving Grace
Seeing The Real You At Last
Series Of Dreams
Seven Curses
Seven Days
Senor (Tales Of Yankee Power)
She Belongs To Me
Shelter From The Storm
Shenandoah
She's Your Lover Now
Shooting Star
Shot Of Love
Sign Language
Sign On The Cross
Sign On The Window..... [Japanese]
Silent Weekend
Silvio
Simple Twist Of Fate
Sitting On A Barbed Wire Fence
Sittin' On Top Of The World
Slow Train
Solid Rock
Someone's Got A Hold Of My Heart
Something There Is About You..... [Japanese]
Something's Burning, Baby
Song To Woody
Spanish Harlem Incident
Spanish Is The Loving Tongue
Stack A Lee
Standing In The Doorway
Standing On The Highway
Steel Bars
Step It Up And Go
Stuck Inside Of Mobile With The Memphis Blues Again..... [Japanese]
Subterranean Homesick Blues
Sugar baby
Summer Days
Suze (The Cough Song)
Sweetheart Like You
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T
T V Talkin' Song
Talkin' Bear Mountain Picnic Massacre
Talkin' Hava Negeilah Blues
Talkin' John Birch Paranoid Blues
Talkin' New York Blues
Talkin' World War III Blues
Tangled Up In Blue
Tears Of Rage
Tell Me
Tell Me That It Isn't True
Tell Me, Momma
Temporary Like Achilles
Things Have Changed
This Wheel's On Fire
Three Angels
Tight Connection To My Heart
'Til I Fell In Love With You
Time Passes Slowly..... [Japanese]
Times They Are A-Changin', The
Tiny Montgomery
To Be Alone With You
To Ramona
Tombstone Blues
Tomorrow Is A Long Time
Tonight I'll Be Staying Here With You
Too Much Of Nothing
Tough Mama
Train A-Travelin'
Trouble
Trouble In Mind
True Love Tends To Forget
Trust Yourself
Tryin' To Get To Heaven
Turkey Chase
Tweedle Dee & Tweedle Dum
Two Soldiers
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U
Ugliest Girl In The World
Unbelievable
Under The Red Sky
Under Your Spell
Union Sundown
Up To Me
[Top of this Page]
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V
Visions Of Johanna
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W
Walk Out In The Rain
Walkin' Down The Line
Wallflower
Walls Of Red Wing
Wandering Kind, The
Wanted Man
Watching The River Flow
Watered-Down Love
We Better Talk This Over
Wedding Song
Went To See The Gypsy
What Can I Do For You?
What Good Am I
What Was It You Wanted
Whatcha Gonna Do?
When He Returns
When I Paint My Masterpiece
When The Night Comes Falling
When The Ship Comes In
When You Gonna Wake Up
Where Are You Tonight
Where The Teardrops Fall
Who Killed Davey Moore
Wicked Messenger, The
Wiggle Wiggle
Wigwam
Winterlude
With God On Our Side
Woogie Boogie
World Gone Wrong
Worried Blues
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Y
Ye Shall Be Changed
Yea! Heavy And A Bottle Of Bread
You Ain't Goin' Nowhere
You Angel, You
You Changed My Life
You're A Big Girl Now
You're Gonna Make Me Lonesome When You Go
You're Gonna Quit Me
KMC Community Forums
Oct 1st, 2005 11:37 PM
