Not exactly. Flash found there was no speedforce in the Marvelverse, so his power decreased to nothing. The Scarlet Witch found her powers increased hugely, because Lords Of Chaos and Order are active in everyday DCverse life. I think if she stayed home, and visited the pocket dimension rules by Lord Chaos and Master Order, the same thing would happen - personalities of Reed and Sue Richards were warped by the nature of that place.
Ok, I'll bite.
Although WonderWoman's abilities are NOT psionic based but magic based (blessed by the gods and all that jazz). Anyways, let's assume your psionic viewpoint for the moment.
Couple of questions though:
Q1:
Then explain why Rogue couldn't move the earth?
She doesn't fly under magic, and definitely not through technology, thus it has to be 'psionic' in nature.
Same as Superman/Martian Manhunter.
Thus why can she not move the earth (or for that matter an Oil super-tanker ship ....actually let us stick to the supertanker since the earth is kind of a big chewtoy. Why can't Rogue simply 'surround' the ship with a psionic field and just fly off with it?)
Q2:
In fact, talking about psionics, let's concentrate on a character that not only utilizes psionic power but is also a master of the genre.
Jean Grey.
When she flies/glides she is using her mental powers, and she can also reach out and touch things with it (and move them through telekinesis, a form of psionics).
Plus she is on of the more powerful users of the mind.
Why then can she not simply place a finger on a 600,000 ton ship and fly off with it?
And if she would get 'tired' doing that then why are people like Superman, Martian Manhunter, and WonderWoman be able to do such a task with ease?
If it was all about psionics then a character like Jean Grey should be able to be one of the heavy lifters in the MU.
Q3:
Oh, and take Aquaman.
He has done feats like lifting a city block.
Was that also due to 'psionic' mental powers?
He wasn't even flying when he did so.
He is stricly a terrestrial/aquatic character (the closest he comes to flying is when he is swimming underwater), and all of his physical powers come from enhanced Atlantean physiology (he does have telepathy, but I doubt you'll claim that he uses that to cast 'psionic envelops' so he can lift matter).
Q4:
Anyways, I don't think you can say it is all psionics since if that was all that was required then characters like Jean Grey would be written differently.
However, just to play devil's advocate let me assume that what you said is true.
100% true.
And that the prime DC characters do their uber strength feats through the use of psionics.
Hence WW must be one of the most potent psionic exponents in both the DCU and Marvel Universe. Near the tippy-tip of the tippy-top (with Superman and MM also having psionic powers that make Jean Grey seem like a goo-oozing devolving uni-cellular organism).
Ok! Then why in goodness name is such a 'psionic powerhouse' being set against a character like She-Hulk?
If WonderWoman (and Superman and MM) moved the mass of the moon (including the addiitonal effort needed to decay orbit and reinstate orbit) due to her willpower, then why is someone like She-Hulk being put against a character who can move 24 Quintillion tons through power of the mind alone?
Conclusion:
Either way ....be it 'normal' strength or applied psionics, simply shows that the She-Hulk is just not a match for WonderWoman.
Not even close.
Last edited by spetznaz on Jan 3rd, 2006 at 02:10 AM
That was an aside to the debate, and did not have to do with She-Hulk vs. Wonder Woman. As I said earlier, I side with Diana.
When I've brought this up in the Superman thread, the difference I made is that unlike a real telekenetic, Superman cannot lift an object from afar. He has to be in physical contact with it, for it to be lifted as he wills himself to lift off. As for standing on the ground and lifting something like a long ship or supertanker, this would be a physical impossibility because lifting it at any point would result in the ship cracking into pieces around you - try lifting a watermelon with the head of a pin. Even if that pin was adamantium, it would sink in. When we see it happen in a comic, we can only assume the hero is keeping it intact through some psionic force or magic enchantment. This applies to people in both Marvel and DC, if you think I'm singling out DC by the way.
Why some characters have to use more effort than others is a question to ask creators at Marvel and DC. Superman is an alien being who is power-charged by scientific means not completely explained; and has a strong mental will that can resist mental manipulation to a degree. Rogue is not strong mentally, likely never had enough will to perform a major dragging or lifting in air, but since her flying powers come from Miss Marvel, you should look at her. And, through raw power alone, we have seen Thor lift the Midgard Serpant, who mass is equal to the Earth's; and in Marvel 1602, he carries a large wooden ship through the air by enchantment of mjolnir. And pre-phoenix Jean Grey had her limits to what her mind could take.
Plus, if everything could be easily explained in comics, we wouldn't be here debating.
__________________
"I'm not smart so much as I am not dumb." - Harlan Ellison
I agree with you ... really good post, id even say its applicable to the MM , but Wonder Woman ? .... her power is derived from Godly magic, not psionics !
Good theory , but its falls short !
And yes Olymps, the War World thing is more Cooler in my oppinion ! I know that planets weigh alot , I know sweet FA about magic snakes. Dont get me started on the feat of Herc apprently 'Lifting' the world !
Last edited by R.O.T. Yahman on Jan 3rd, 2006 at 03:55 PM
In all honesty we know the real answer; this is once again an example of BAD comic science. IMO the artist/writers intentions, are to depict these characters vast strengths. Marvel tend to use a more realistic approach, which means we rarely see such emphatic feats
But your Byrne esque theory does hold some ground. Psionics and magic are both mythical forms of energy (E.g. psionics being the more 'scientific' form of magic). Although these energies are mythical they both follow the rules of nature in that they can be increased by energy transfer from separate sources.
This is where we can answer spetznaz, question about how Supes and co can perform more impressive feats to the likes of Rogue and Jean !
Its down the energy sources available. As we know Supes and Dianna have access to near inexhaustible energy sources (The magics of the gods, and the sun) where as Jean and Rogue have comparable limited sources. The amount of energy available to Supes and Diana allow them to transfer this power into what can only be described as the 'Lifting Force'. Similar to Wickermans 'strength force' it allows them to defy the laws of physics and perform these seemingly impossible impossible feats.
Gender: Male Location: I'm not giving my name to a machine
Jean Grey doesn't manifest her telekinetics through touch.
The only one I know for sure has some tactile telekinesis on your list there is Superman. It explains why he can pick up giant objects and not have them crumble. And possibly increases his strength subconciously.
__________________ Originally posted by -Pr- a great big penis.
That is one thing I really do not comprehend about Marvel fanboys (and girls). They automatically believe that just because a character is from MArvel he/she/it is going to win (goodness, there are threads on KMC pitting Superman vs WOLVERINE, Superman vs SPIDERMAN and the Flash versus QUICKSILVER ....and in one of the funnier threads, by a certain person who tends to post 7.34 threads a day, he actually put a certain character, who was defeated by NightCrawler and Magik, against the entire DC Universe. Note: The entire DCU!!!!).
Insane!!!!
At times it appears that the average Marvel fanboy actually does believe that certain characters (primarily Wolverine, Captain America, and to some extent Spiderman) can beat any character in DC. Many of the matchups tend to illustrate that belief.
I wouldn't be surprised to see a thread that has Captain America (and his 'unbeatable' adamantium/vibranium shield) and Spiderman (and his 'invincible' spider-sense) with help from Wolverine (and his 'woolbereen weens lol' bevy of fanboys) being put up against the entire DCU. And I bet you'd see at least 5 people seriously thinking that the 3 Marvel characters had a chance.
Goodness, She Hulk (who by the way I am very familiar with) is NOT stronger than WonderWoman, she is NOT equal in strength to Wonderwoman, and is NOT near WonderWoman in strength levels.
That is something that the majority of Marvel fanboys will actually agree with .....that She Hulk is not as strong (and definitely not stronger) than WonderWoman.
Now, I have to say that She Hulk is one of the most underappreciated Marvel characters. She is extremely strong (actually stronger than some of the more popular Marvel characters ....cough cough, are you listening Thing), and while she is not the Hulk she does approach (note: approach) her cousin's strength levels (the normal ones).
However she is NOT WonderWoman.
Diana is, simply put, on a different level.
And just because She Hulk is a Marvel character doesn't mean that she will win (as hard as that may be for a Marvel fanboy/girl to swallow)..
i think you are falling into a trap that a lot of writers seem to of needing to rationalize the absurd ways that superpowers are transfered (i hate the totemic spiderman thing.....) The high science needed to explain how a human would have the capabilites of flight doesnt exist. Even saying telekenetic, you might as well say that there are strings from an unknown divinity holding superman in the air, no evidence exists for either, in fact, as far as i know, superman has NEVER shown any sort of telekenesis. (ill be honest, im a marvel fan boy :P)
AND about moving the moon. It is possible as a feat of strength, since the characters are able to generate thrust as they fly (ie, they can speed up mid flight) which seems to be proportionate to their strength. So long as they continued exerting said thrust at a high enough strength they would push the moon.
Superman does have telepathic powers, described in the old Man of Steel, John Byrne comics that appeared after the Crisis on Infinite Earths. He has a tk aura that surrounds his body, and he can even surround other objects with it. It was used to describe things like his suit not getting hurt when he hit with a nuke, or how he holds a building together when lifting it. And then he also has the Kryptonian Disciplines of Torqasm Vo Torqasm Rao, in which he can enter and combat on mental wavelengths.
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