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Pre-retcon Amalgam Brothers discussion
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WanderingDroid
THE LOOSE CANNON

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
I hate Amalgam Comics.

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Apr 3rd, 2007 03:00 PM

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Mr Master
Junior Member

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Location: somewhere within time & space

quote: (post)
Originally posted by WorldWarHulk
I never said anything about the other things.

You really think that Spectre and LT could fuse the Gods of their universes?

Also...
"The brothers are not happy about it."
(please log in to view the image)

It seems that Spectre and LT are actaully fighting against a force to do this...
(please log in to view the image)

Look, I don't give a shit if Spectre, or LT were mere pissants to the Brothers.
Fact is, they held them together, and I know for damn sure, Spectre, and LT together aren't doing that to the Gods of their respective universes.

So, unless Spectre, and LT could do that to Jeebus, or God, that kind of rules them out, of being God.

I agree.

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Apr 3rd, 2007 11:34 PM

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Mr Master
Junior Member

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Location: somewhere within time & space

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007
Fact is,

The Brothers never fought being merged in the first place.

There's another fact,

The Brothers were going to Obliterate One of the Two Universes,

that's when Spectre and LT made their "Last ditch effort" to save everything.

So in fact,

LT and Spectre resisted the Brothers' from acting out that plan,

by pulling both Realities together.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007
However, those scans are really meaningless if we are trying to compare the Brothers to LT/Spectre.

You mean the ones depicting Spectre and LT physically holding the Merger together?

Even struggling, yet the Brothers were not trying to break free.?

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007
Now the scan(s) I posted........ You know, the ones that say LT and Spectre were AWED by the power of the Brothers, is most certainly one worth mentioning.

You mean the statement? smile

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Apr 3rd, 2007 11:40 PM

Mr Master
Junior Member

Gender: Male
Location: somewhere within time & space

The LT and Spectre would never Own TOAA and the Presence,

but LT and Spectre DID OWN these Brothers momentarily:

"The Brothers are MERGING Realities, combining Universes"
(please log in to view the image)

(Actually we find out in the Next Issue, that the Living Tribunal and Spectre were the ones that MERGED the TWO Universes BY FORCE!)

When LT and Spectre MERGED the TWO Universes/Brothers, (by Force)

the Brothers became ONE Universe called the Amalgam Universe

(basically a Mixture of BOTH)

(please log in to view the image)

"He had thought the MERGING was the DOING of the Brothers,

it was NOT"

(please log in to view the image)
"because of the War, ONE of the Universes faced being hurled INTO OBLIVION"

"And the Cosmic Guardians ... the Living Tribunal and Spectre,

are HOLDING it ALL TOGETHER" (by Force)

(please log in to view the image)
"Their effort Created a Amalgam Universe ... the Brother aren't Happy about it"

The Living Tribunal and Spectre were struggling to keep the Brothers MERGED.

But they still succeeded in doing so: (momentarily)

(please log in to view the image)

Catch LT and Spectre trying to do this to TOAA or the Presence laughing

Who ever these Brothers were supposed to be,

it sure wasn't TOAA & Presence.

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Apr 3rd, 2007 11:56 PM

Mr Master
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Gender: Male
Location: somewhere within time & space

I don't care what excuse cats come up with to disregard the FACTS.

This merger would never be possible on TOAA & the Presence,

even for an instant.

LT and Spectre Merged the Brothers, and kept them Merged against their will.

The Brothers wanted to destroy One of themselves,

and LT and Spectre did NOT allow this by Merging both Realities instead.

Owned! (momentarily though)

btw. This Merger was going to destroy BOTH Brothers, laughing out loud

had it not been for Access who helped LT and Spectre separate them safely.

"When it looked like the Universes would be Obliterated"

(please log in to view the image)

"We're still here indicates our Universes coexisting rather than smashed together"

LT and Spectre even say,

(please log in to view the image)

The Universes are momentarily safe"

"It is nothing short of miraculous they exist at all"

So it's interesting,

Spectre and LT were "awed" when the they saw the Brothers battling,

but they were not "awed" that they themselves nearly obliterated both Brothers.

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Last edited by Mr Master on Apr 4th, 2007 at 12:16 AM

Apr 4th, 2007 12:01 AM

starlock
Team Authority

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by BaptizedAtheist
If TOAA and Presence was above Amalglam brothers... they would interfere. WHich they didn't. They are intelligent beings, they wouldn't want to be fused together

I agree

Could Lt and Spectre do what they did to TOAA and The
Presence
Yes if thats what the writers and editors wanted from both companies
Can we say the amalgamation fused entity is more powerfull than One (TOAA or The presence)

How many stories involve a second in command going against his boss, and winning. or a more powerfull boss getting beat by his student-it happens

It might not be Canon but it was written by both companies and we can see with all the legalities,the money making,they wanted to tell a story and i am sure the story was agreed by both companies

For the Marvel Vs DC Crossover the brothers could be more powerfull than TOAA and The Presence

Just some thoughts on the matter

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Apr 4th, 2007 01:29 AM

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starlock
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I am just putting out some ideas

For this story i can see the brothers as the parents of TOAA and the presence

They gave birth to TOAA and The presence
We know that LT or Spectre never made a reference that their respective bosses were involved
They were in awe of them
LT and Spectre were unoticed by them or insignificant

We know they were all that was and they had a fight which resulted in a a death and rebirth which created multiverses- i think thats when TOAA and The presence were born and the brothers forgot about eachother untill the surfer/GL crossover

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Apr 4th, 2007 01:42 AM

Juntai
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Starlock, you're obviously lost here. For one, you're creeping WAY past speculation here. Two, the brothers obviously weren't far and away stronger than Spectre and Tribunal, as the pulled the two together. Three; if these WERE the representatives of TOAA and The Presence [funny though that the Presence is also refered to by Spectre as the one above all.], then they certainly would not, could not act against that will, and thus certainly, could not do so to a being that created their omnipotent creators.

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Apr 4th, 2007 01:47 AM

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starlock
Team Authority

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Juntai
Starlock, you're obviously lost here. For one, you're creeping WAY past speculation here. Two, the brothers obviously weren't far and away stronger than Spectre and Tribunal, as the pulled the two together. Three; if these WERE the representatives of TOAA and The Presence [funny though that the Presence is also refered to by Spectre as the one above all.], then they certainly would not, could not act against that will, and thus certainly, could not do so to a being that created their omnipotent creators.

Hey there juntai

Issue #2 of Marvel vs DC leads me to believe that they were their before The presence and Toaa at the begining
When Marvel was Atlas and such, and after the surfer/Gl crossover they became aware of eachother again

I wont post again its ok,i thought this was the place to bring up ideas and thoughts about the brothers, i did not know i was lost

Sorry Thanos_thotu,it was not my intention to offend anyone

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Apr 4th, 2007 02:24 AM

Galan007
|Quantum Observer|

Gender: Male
Location: Mars, 1985

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mr Master
Catch LT and Spectre trying to do this to TOAA or the Presence.

Who ever these Brothers were supposed to be,

it sure wasn't TOAA & Presence.

Care to explain this then?

"Power is unleashed that none have ever witnessed....."
"And The Spectre and The Living Tribunal are Awed":
(please log in to view the image)(please log in to view the image)

How many times have LT or Spectre been AWED by another beings power? smile

And if LT and Spectre "owned" the Bros once as you said, then why were they incapable of stopping them again here:
(please log in to view the image)

(I see them trying to stop the Bros, but I also see their efforts failing).

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Last edited by Galan007 on Apr 4th, 2007 at 03:25 AM

Apr 4th, 2007 03:17 AM

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Mr Master
Junior Member

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Location: somewhere within time & space

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Juntai
Starlock, you're obviously lost here. For one, you're creeping WAY past speculation here. Two, the brothers obviously weren't far and away stronger than Spectre and Tribunal, as the pulled the two together. Three; if these WERE the representatives of TOAA and The Presence [funny though that the Presence is also refered to by Spectre as the one above all.], then they certainly would not, could not act against that will, and thus certainly, could not do so to a being that created their omnipotent creators.

Perfectly put.

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Apr 4th, 2007 04:30 AM

nvrbeenwthagirl
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mr Master
Perfectly put.

Apr 4th, 2007 04:41 AM

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Mr Master
Junior Member

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007
Care to explain this then?

"Power is unleashed that none have ever witnessed....."
"And The Spectre and The Living Tribunal are Awed":

How many times have LT or Spectre been AWED by another beings power?

Brother G,

I never said LT and Spectre were made to be more powerful than these Brothers.

So I'm not surprised they were amazed at what they saw.

My contention is that these Brothers, how ever powerful they were,

they were certainly NOT the Supreme Beings, or anywhere near TOAA & Presence.

Why?

Because Spectre and LT were able to affect them, beyond affect,

Spectre and LT Merged the Brothers, who were Two Universes, and made them One.

That's the Re-Structuring of BOTH entire Realities.

Then again, it's all Non-Canon anyway, so I shouldn't be surprised.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007
And if LT and Spectre "owned" the Bros once as you said, then why were they incapable of stopping them again here:

(I see them trying to stop the Bros, but I also see their efforts failing).

Well this demonstrates that the Brothers were more powerful than LT and Spectre in this Non-Canon Arc,

BUT,

LT and Spectre still managed to momentarily Warp the

out of both Brothers.

In fact the Merger was going to destroy Both Brothers. (Let's Not Forget)

So while I agree that the Brothers were more powerful than LT and Spectre.

I must also contend that LT and Spectre were able to obliterate both Brothers On Panel by Merging them.

It's a fact, and it should be known.

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Apr 4th, 2007 04:43 AM

Endless Mike
Sqirrel Girl fanboy

Gender: Unspecified
Location: United States

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007
This makes no sense.

Are you trying to say that one company (Marvel or DC), can have a truly omnipotent being, and the other company can not?

In a crossover, yes.

It's logically impossible for two omnipotent beings to exist.

Besides, the mere fact that they couldn't defeat each other, and that they didn't automatically know the results of the battles before they even started, proves they're not omnipotent.

In fact, it's hard to say if anything in fiction is really omnipotent, because if you think about it, a true omnipotent being would only have to act once, and then everything would be perfectly the way the being wanted it to be, forever into the future as it would be all - knowing.

Any being that acts more than once is not omnipotent.

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Apr 4th, 2007 08:19 AM

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Galan007
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mr Master
So while I agree that the Brothers were more powerful than LT and Spectre.

That's all I wanted to clarify. smile

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Apr 4th, 2007 02:24 PM

Galan007
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Gender: Male
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Endless Mike
It's logically impossible for two omnipotent beings to exist.

I disagree with this.

How is it impossible for two omnipotent beings to exist, especially when one of these beings represented Marvel, and the other represented DC? confused

Please explain to me exactly why this is an impossibility?

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Besides, the mere fact that they couldn't defeat each other,

Again,

The Bros powers were exactly equal.

What happens when two beings whom are exactly equal in power, battle each other?

They stalemate, (which is what happened with the Bros). smile

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Endless Mike
and that they didn't automatically know the results of the battles before they even started, proves they're not omnipotent.

What you're referring to is omniscience.

In the comic world, omniscience and omnipotence don't always go hand in hand.

Meaning that in comics, someone can gain omnipotence, but not gain the omniscience that should logically come with it.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Any being that acts more than once is not omnipotent.

Unless this being is fighting another being who is his equal in every way. smile

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Last edited by Galan007 on Apr 4th, 2007 at 02:41 PM

Apr 4th, 2007 02:39 PM

Mr Master
Junior Member

Gender: Male
Location: somewhere within time & space

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007
That's all I wanted to clarify.

This is all I wanted to clarify:

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mr Master
So while I agree that the Brothers were more powerful than LT and Spectre.

I must also contend

that LT and Spectre were able to Obliterate both Brothers On Panel,

by Merging them.

It's a fact,

and it should be known.

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Apr 4th, 2007 05:11 PM

Endless Mike
Sqirrel Girl fanboy

Gender: Unspecified
Location: United States

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007
I disagree with this.

How is it impossible for two omnipotent beings to exist, especially when one of these beings represented Marvel, and the other represented DC?

Please explain to me exactly why this is an impossibility?

Because if one being is omnipotent, then, by definition, that being can do anything.

If another being is supposedly omnipotent, then that being can oppose the first being. If the first being can be opposed, then it can't do anything, and is thus not omnipotent. The same holds true for the second being.

quote:
Again,

The Bros powers were exactly equal.

What happens when two beings whom are exactly equal in power, battle each other?

They stalemate, (which is what happened with the Bros).

You don't get it. An omnipotent, by definition, has no equals.

Logical deconstruction -

The first Amalgam brother is omnipotent - Premise

Given any ability, the first Amalgam brother has that ability - Definition of omnipotence

The first Amalgam brother was unable to foresee the results of the DC vs. Marvel fights, or defeat the second Amalgam brother - Shown in the comic.

Points 1 and 3 contradict each other, therefore point 1 is wrong. Apply the same for the second Amalgam brother.

quote:
What you're referring to is omniscience.

In the comic world, omniscience and omnipotence don't always go hand in hand.

Meaning that in comics, someone can gain omnipotence, but not gain the omniscience that should logically come with it.

"Omniscience is a necessary corollary of Omnipotence" - Dr. Doom.

If you're omnipotent, you can know anything just by wanting to. Why would they want to set up the fights if they could just know the outcomes by wanting to know?

quote:
Unless this being is fighting another being who is his equal in every way.

Which would mean that neither of them are omnipotent, because an omnipotent being, by definition, has no equals.

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Apr 4th, 2007 05:13 PM

Mr Master
Junior Member

Gender: Male
Location: somewhere within time & space

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007
especially when one of these beings represented Marvel,

and the other represented DC?

I find this notion contradictory to On Panel scenerios depicted like this one:

"When it looked like the Universes would be Obliterated"
(please log in to view the image)
"the Bum helped me jump someplace, Inbetween,

someplace where NO ASPECT of the Brothers Existed"

How can there be a place that the Brothers are not a part of,

if they encompass all of Marvel and DC? (everything)

And where is this place exactly?

Where is this exra-dimensional Space coming from, if the Brothers are all?

(please log in to view the image)

Sure Bats, & Cap can barely comprehend what they're seeing but it's still,

"someplace, Inbetween, someplace where NO ASPECT of the Brothers Existed"

SO where is this place?

This, amongst other reasons, is why this garbage is NON-CANON! smile

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Last edited by Mr Master on Apr 4th, 2007 at 05:32 PM

Apr 4th, 2007 05:23 PM

Galan007
|Quantum Observer|

Gender: Male
Location: Mars, 1985

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Because if one being is omnipotent, then, by definition, that being can do anything.

If another being is supposedly omnipotent, then that being can oppose the first being. If the first being can be opposed, then it can't do anything, and is thus not omnipotent. The same holds true for the second being.

If TOAA in Marvel fought the Presence in DC, what would happen?

Because we know that these characters are both omnipotent.

Yet I have a hard time believing that one of them could beat the other. erm

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Endless Mike
If you're omnipotent, you can know anything just by wanting to.

Again,

This doesn't always hold true in the comic world.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Which would mean that neither of them are omnipotent, because an omnipotent being, by definition, has no equals.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007
If TOAA in Marvel fought the Presence in DC, what would happen?

Because we know that these characters are both omnipotent.

Yet I have a hard time believing that one of them could beat the other.

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Apr 4th, 2007 05:33 PM

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