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Did Arogorn use a ring?????
Started by: glorfindel

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glorfindel
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Location: United Kingdom

dear Ushgarak
I am glad that at last we have a debate that is raising the heat,otherwise whats the point?
I do feel though that to compare my veiw(question) to idiocy is harsh.
the three rings that the elves use(just like all the otheres (except the one)) could only be corrupted by the one. What I mean is that the three elven rings where hidden and not used while sauron had possetion of the one ring and were only used after he lost it. the rings do not corrupt in themselves only under the one ring can they be corrupted
This is my view please feel free to attack it with logic but not with aggression as this is the last refuge of the .........?

the fact that the wraith saw a woman in front of him on the battle field and not a man is a large part of the plot..

the prophacy was that not by the hand of MAN..

but back to the main problem, can we agree that the ring fell at the
battle field? it was lost and needed a new master? why not use it?

Oct 9th, 2002 06:36 PM

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Dexx
wingless

Gender: Male
Location: Bucharest, Romania

u keep poppijng that question...ok..take it this way. Why not use the one ring?

Oct 9th, 2002 07:07 PM

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Ushgarak
Paladin

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Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK

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You are wrong to say that the rings only corrupt while Sauron has them; I will again remind you that the Nazgul's rings continued to corrupt them all the time while Sauron was formless and ringless. And the Elves were using their rings right from the start, while Sauron was still there with his one ring, just like everyone else was. Galadriel, Cirdan and Gil-Galad bore them from the moment they were finished onwards, as bequested by Celebrimbor. They are notable in being the only rings CONSTRUCTED outside of Sauron's influence- for he was never allowed to take them directly- but they still came under the influence of the One Ring.

My attack on your points was extremely logical. The aggression just punctuated the point and my extreme dissatsifaction at your tone. It was what you were saying that was nonsense.

And we have already answered your main question many times. Aragorn would be corrupted by the ring if he used it. Your assumption that they only corrupt while Sauron had the One Ring is simply incorrect.

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Last edited by Ushgarak on Oct 9th, 2002 at 07:51 PM

Oct 9th, 2002 07:21 PM

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Dexx
wingless

Gender: Male
Location: Bucharest, Romania

Tolkien lies disturbed in his grave...

Oct 9th, 2002 07:37 PM

glorfindel
Senior Member

Gender: Unspecified
Location: United Kingdom

you win

Oct 9th, 2002 08:07 PM

Ushgarak
Paladin

Gender: Male
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK

Co-Admin

Oh! Spoken like a gentleman, in which case I apologise.

I'd actually brought in my brother to speak on this, who may make an authorititive reply soon...

...but it is also very possible that the Nazguls no longer have Rings with pyhsical form, bound instead into their own wraithly bodies. So you could never even take the thing at all.

Oct 9th, 2002 08:09 PM

glorfindel
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Gender: Unspecified
Location: United Kingdom

let him reply smile

Oct 9th, 2002 08:17 PM

Brith
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Location: United Kingdom

My view is Aragorn would not use the ring from the Nazgul is because of threat of corruption. The reason why I think this is as follows...

Originally there were 19 rings (9 for men, 7 for dwarves, 3 for elves) and they were forged by the Noldor Elves under the guidance of Celebrimbor - the three elven rings were forged by Celebrimbor alone. Sadly, Sauron tricked Celebrimbor into revealing the secret of the rings. Sauron then made the One Ring in order to rule the other rings. So the One Ring has power over the other rings.

Sauron's plan was not entirely successful. Celebrimbor was able to realise Sauron's trap and free the three elven rings from Sauron's influence (arguably as he alone had made the three elvish rings). Sauron's influence could reach the Dwarves, but they turned out to be largely immune (though it gave them a lust for gold). Men, of course, were an easy target. So, the rings do corrupt even though they were not forged for that purpose but it is the One Ring.

Sauron placed much of his own essence into the One Ring, resulting in a strange link between the Ring and Sauron. While the ring exists Sauron will endure, which is how he survives the destruction of his body at the end of the Second Age. So anyone who wears the One Ring will be corrupted as so much of Sauron's essence is in the Ring. The One Ring influences the 16 rings of dwarves and men. Again, because so much of Sauron is in the Ring anyone wearing those rings will be also be corrupted through the influence of the One Ring.

What would happen if an Elf wore the one of the rings of men or dwarves is an interesting idea. On one hand Elves are meant to be uncorruptable. On the other Sauron is the ultimate corrupting force. I'd go with that the Elf would feel so uncomfortable handling one of these rings that he or she would't wear it.

The hardest question is the one about whee the rings go when a Nazgul is destroyed. Nazguls are wraiths so don't exist in the real world, but when their bodies are destroyed at the Ford of Bruinen they don't seem to lose any rings. So I guess the Ring stays with the Nazgul spirit while it finds a new body. This leads me on to my question...

Can someone tell me if the Chief Nazgul's ring is left behind after he is killed at Pelannor Fields? If it was, where does it say that in Return of the King? It could be Aragorn never put a ring on as he never got a chance to!

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Oct 9th, 2002 08:36 PM

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Fire
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damn you're good, I agree with everything u say man

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Oct 9th, 2002 09:03 PM

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glorfindel
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Location: United Kingdom

where does it say he didn,t lose the ring?
to answer another earlier point , why would aragorn put the ring on? , i have to ask why not? please consider the position.
Our hero has just defeated the witch king and his army,his options are to hide behind the walls, or to take the fight to sauron.
to hide is not in his nature,so on he must go.
He(as we know) will dare great deeds if he must. If(if) he took the ring what would happen? he would not get corrupted straigt away (even the one takes some time to twist people) he would gain some power or advantage by it,s use and what has he to lose? If the one is destoyed then his ring would lose its power and have nomore effect on him,If he dies ( eek!

) then he is dead and the ring has no power over him.
my point then is IF the ring was there why not use it? smile

Oct 10th, 2002 06:18 PM

Dexx
wingless

Gender: Male
Location: Bucharest, Romania

*wakes up after all that reading*
I think the final...final conclusion is that he wouldn't use the ring because he woudn't need it. As simple as that

Oct 10th, 2002 06:55 PM

glorfindel
Senior Member

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Location: United Kingdom

it was just a thougth you know, one of those passing,lazy,thoughts

Oct 11th, 2002 06:13 PM

Ushgarak
Paladin

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Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK

Co-Admin

Glorfindel, LOTR clearly shows that it is the height of foolishness to believe you can use these corrupting things for a short amount of time with no ill effects. You think you will use it for a short time with no problem, that's not how it will be. It wasn't with the Palantirs, it wasn't with the One Ring, it would not be with those rings.

The WHOLE POINT is that you cannot use this corrupted power in ANY way or measure at all and be safe.

Oct 11th, 2002 07:02 PM

glorfindel
Senior Member

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Location: United Kingdom

I am sorry that you think that the palantirs are evil because they were not. that is clearly stated in the unfinished tales under the title palantiri pages404 through to page 415. Arogorn had the right to use them and did , the effect or strain he suffered was through takeing control of the stone not because of any evil attached to the seeing stone.
If you have not read this book I strongly recomend it at the back are chapters that discribe the different races including wizzards,(istari),the druedainand the palantiri, it,s a good read.

enjoy smokin'

Oct 11th, 2002 09:34 PM

Ushgarak
Paladin

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Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK

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It was not the Palantirs that were evil, but the principle is still that Saruman did not think hes limited use of the palintirs would corrupt him (with Sauron at the other end) but it DID!

I will repeat this VERY BASIC point from the books- you don't piss around with evil in LOTR. There is no measure of limited use of it, or using it for a good cause. You try it and it GETS you.

Last edited by Ushgarak on Oct 11th, 2002 at 09:55 PM

Oct 11th, 2002 09:52 PM

glorfindel
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Location: United Kingdom

But didn,t Arogorn use the palintiri to find out about the cossar attack thus he was able to deside to take the path of the dead to save the day (just in time)?
he used the stone while the other stone was still with sauron .just like saruman but the differance here is that Arogorn had the right to use the stone while saruman did not. cool

but I will agree with you eek!

that the whole point of LOTR,s is the rejection of evil,unlike the hobbit which is a clear fight against evil(smaug), all those who accept or try to gain through evil(the rings), are brought down(borromir) while those that are tried and resist(gladriel)are rewarded. that is the reason that we can maybe say that arogorn did not find or, if he did ,use a ring at the end.
total rejection of evil even at the end>>>>>>>>>>>>> smokin'

Oct 12th, 2002 07:42 PM

Ushgarak
Paladin

Gender: Male
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK

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I believe Denethor had the right to use the palantir as well, yet he was still affected and became despair stricken, as the chapter you mentioned above notes. That chapter specifically states that the palantirs were not by design things of evil but Sauron's influence (though he did not put 100% attention to it) pervaded them. I'll check about Aragorn.

But yes, the principle of total rejection of evil would mean there is no chance that Aragorn would use that Ring. Even if it were physically there, which is in doubt.