It's a continual drain of strength, unless Ganon knows the appropriate counter curse he's just going to continue on chasing the Necromancer (who by the way can cast illusions of himself that fool even experienced magical users) until he collapses.
Durability is essentially a moot factor; it's not like the Necromancer is going to get hit much, if at all. Even if he did, quite powerful enchantments in the cloak of their trade protect him, not to mention the armor that he gets in this fight. (Zayl was only momentarily stunned by a huge haymaker from a Wendigo that would have knocked a normal man's head clean off.)
I didn't even bring up the "Iron Maiden" spell. Necromancer could just stand still and take the hits happily, take no damage whatsoever and whatever Ganon does harms himself instead. It was cast on a Barbarian who managed to kill an iron-made gargoyle by just standing still.
All you said there is completely moot if the Necromancer casts confuse or blind on him, or uses a few magical decoys.
as the expert on bonemancers, i say necro soloes with OR without minions...iron maiden, blind, decripfy, + armour = win..the army makes no real difference..
1. The Necromancer can attack naked souls and spirits, so turning intangible will not help him.
2. Weaken. He will never break trough the bone shield and even less the indestructable armor that the Necromancer is currently equiped with.
3. Yes he is.
4. No he cant.
Tell me. Exactly how would Ganon beat someone that can teleport more swiftly, has a perfect AI and is as good as physically and elementally invulnerable for as long as he remains alert, which he will since it is a perfect AI.
Who by the way has GIMPED mana and mana regeneration. I do not think you know the Necromancer class well enough. Either that, or you just do not want to see Ganon lose as one in the crowd against an un-named silly Diablo character.
The whole "Diablo characters are crap" deal is very popular thinking. I do not think many truelly realise how powerful these characters are.
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Last edited by Super Marie 64 on Apr 3rd, 2008 at 09:34 AM
2. So he can break through tons of castle that just fell on him, and disintegrate a Sage, but can't break through the Necro's Bone Shield or armor? Lol. Also, Ganon can fire blasts which go right through all armor or shields.
3. No he isn't, never shown that kinda durability.
4. Yeah, he really can.
5. Teleport more swiftly? Where do you get that? Ganon is a spam teleporter. Perfect AI is still only AI. The Necro is nowhere near Ganon physically, that is bullshit. Elementally invulnerable? No-Limit fallacy, he has never shown to have been hit by an elemental power like freezing a city over, and the ice was so cold only blue fire could melt it, and that was only certain, weaker parts of it.
Unless it's dispelled/counter-spelled, even the Triforce is not going to save Ganon from exhaustion. Curses are special; they're in a field beyond ordinary magic. They drive deep into the victim's very core of being. No matter what the amount of power within someone they're still going to lose it and fast. When it was cast upon Zayl he collapsed in about a second and only was barely able to counterspell it.
Necromancers also can teleport in a moment's notice, as shown in the Moon of the Spider and the Kingdom of Shadow novels. And also, being fast isn't really going to help if the Necromancer can mask himself in illusion. Ganon's just going to be chasing shadows.
Also, necromancers can also put the image of someone's worst corporal fear into their head, to the point where even if one knew that it was only an illusion, it could not override their primal fear, and pure fear is one of the most base of emotions.
Yeah, and considering that a young Necromancer managed to escape a trap amplified by Diablo himself (which consisted of being "melded" into a rock wall) while nearly being crushed to death by said wall, I don't think being frozen solid is going to do that much for very long, or that it would affect him at all.
Wrong, it worked against someone that was entirely possessed by Diablo, and as we all know he's definitely not a man, nor a mortal.
Nice try.
When it was demonstrated in a novel that necromancers put wards and enchantments on their minds and bodies to prevent themselves from possession by any being.
Yeah, right.
If the armor has a Zod rune in it, then yes, it is technically completely indestructible. Both game and lore wise.
As for a bone wall or prison, you're missing the point; the magic is based on the victim's being, rather than an object. The bone wall is made of bones and magically enhanced as to possess the souls of previous victims of the person it is being cast upon. Power from beyond the grave is a completely unrestricted field of magic.
Tell me, how many people has Ganon killed before? Many? I thought so.
Oh, so mana-based protective bubbles are moot then.
I have a feeling you're making things up now. If it's a "blast" then it's a corporeal attack and so can be deflected by a mana shield. Unless it's a soul attack.
There's some basic rules that have to be followed.
If the necromancer has armor that contains a Zod rune, then yes, that could give him insane amounts of durability. And that's without the runes and protective symbols etched onto their cloaks.
Yeah, he punches through a wall seeing an image of the Necromancer standing there in his mind. Whoops!
There's your one move. See how ridiculous your argument is here?
(please log in to view the image)
Yes he has, he got hit by a trap laid by Diablo. It consisted of huge hands growing out of the wall, nearly squeezing the life from him, and then dragging him to a point into a cave wall where his physical shell was to be one with the rock that surrounded it. So to speak, he was turning into crystallised deposit and stone.
Zayl managed to escape without the use of his arms and legs, while utterly exhausted and unable to breathe.
Is this another one of those ridiculous "cross-world" fallacies?
What a bloody shambles of an argument that was.
Magic uses the body, not the other way around. You're defying one of the most basic fictional concepts of magic by saying someone has infinite mana.
No one has infinite mana. It's just been shown that Ganon has never ran out while you were fighting him, which suggests that he just has a lot of mana, not infinite.
Necromancer is powerful, not nearly as much as Ganon, but he does have more than enough tricks up his sleeve to turn the odds vastly to his favour.
1. He would not get anywhere near the Necromancer, so this would be a futile attempt.
2. Right trough all armors and shields? Ever penetrated something said to be indestructable? Or penetrated something that absorb elemental damage, even remotely close to the strength of fire delivered from the pits of Hell? The sage that Ganon destroyed for all we know could be as fragile as a raw egg. Since we know NOTHING about the Sage, you can not use that Sage as proof of physical strength. The scraps from the castle may be impressive, but a barbarian can lift stone too. All Diablo characters would survive have a building fall over them. Differently from Ganon, they would all be quick enough to escape and not be hit at all.
3. The devil, the prime evil of the three, Satan himself and the physical muscles of the three primes punched him and the shield did not even begin to lose the strength. He can stand in Hellfire for a long period of time and does not feel a thing. Not even telekinetical blasts can harm a shielded Necromancer.
4. How? Not by punching, he will not possess because it is a soul attack and against the rules, the necromancer shield will absorb all attacks and the Necromancer is a more swift teleporter and can renew the shield that Ganon by the way has shown no capability of breaking.
5. The Necromancer is nowhere near Ganon physically, but I believe I said quite early that the Necromancer would never engage close-combat and Ganon would never get a chance to touch him.
6. Infinite mana, but no ability good enough to defeat the Necromancer so no matter his mana, it will do him no good.
7. I guess you are right. Ganon has shown he gets beaten by a teenager while all the Necromancer has ever shown that is impressive is that he can defeat Satan.
1. ..........I can't really comment that....who is the most powerful person it has shown to affect?
2. The Triforce is not some run-of-the-mill magic triangle, it is an ancient spiritual artifact of unlimited power(no I am not saying Ganon is omnipotent), he can use that unlimited power to amp his strength.
3. Ganon can cast something close to an illusion, as shown in OoT, Phantom Ganon's can mask themselves to appear to look like Ganon, he can summon a few with his appearance, the difference is, these things can also attack.
Ganon has shown awareness beyond mortals, and has never even hinted fear, his state of mind is Godlike(if that makes sense).
4. So being forced to be melded in a wall>freezing a city?
5. But has he SHOWN planetary awareness? And ever consider his awareness(if they are indeed beyond human) along with his power decrease while controlling a MORTAL shell?
6. Any being? Like what? Saying he can literally withstand any being is a no-limit fallacy, or can he stop the Phoenix Force from possessing him?
7. What is the strongest thing it has withstood. Ever withstood total disintegration? Didn't think so.
Yes, he has killed many, but thing is, if I am remembering correctly how the spell works, can Ganon not just teleport out?
8. No, it literally passes right through armor, even magical things like the Master Sword or Mirror Shield.
9. Won't work on Ganon's mind.
10. That's not what I meant. What makes you think his teleport is as fast as Ganon's?
11. A frickin Wallmaster can do that. Ganon can freeze whole cities. That>assimilating a being into a wall.
12. Not sure, care to explain what one is?
13. Ganon's powers are drawn from an infinite source, the Triforce of Power, all his powers are fueled by that, so yeah, he has infinite magic power, that little mana rule doesn't apply to all verses.
14. Oh, he has tricks to help him out, but not to save him from Ganon.
1. Sure he wouldn't, even if we must ignore logic and how simple it would be to get near the Necro(teleport).
2. Nope, it literally passes through them, eve the Master Sword, which also kills spirits btw. No, it means we must assume he has average physical endurance, and disintegrating a normal human is still more powerful than anything a Necro has done in terms of physical damage. Scraps? No, the majority of his castle, made of stone and steel, was on him. Lift stone? Ever lifted tons of rubble that was piled on him? Didn't think so. See, this is how I know you have never actually played the games and have no real clue what you are talking about, Ganon was in a near death state, he used the rest of his power to crumble the castle, and still had enough strength to leap out from the rubble.
3. You have not ONE feat to say Diablo is physically as powerful as Ganon, simply saying he is the Devil is not good enough. Stand in Hellfire? Ganon tanked Holy Fire/Light. TK blasts? Okay...and? Out of all those, that seems least impressive...
4. He has never shown to resist a disintegrating attack, possession is a soul attack? No it isn't, it is taking over a body, he takes over the Necro, makes him cut his own head off, game over(but according to DarkC, that won't work). Necro Shield absorb all attacks? Ganon will shatter it physically, freeze it solid and then shatter it, or he will just take the easy way out and grab the Necro's windpipe, crushing it. Necro a more swift teleporter? Lol, PROVE IT.
5. And you're wrong, go figure.
6. Copout. Again.
7. So we go by PIS now? Given their powers and stats, Link, even with his two weaknesses, shouldn't get ONE win over Ganon, and just because Diablo is Satan, that makes him stronger? Lol.
As it did not appear as obvious as expected, my [7] was a joke I just brought it up because Ganon has in fact lost against a teenager and the necromancer has defeated the devil. I never go by past accomplishments unless they prove feats when I debate.
Generally truly "powerful" people in the Diablo world don't attack using brute strength and can still function even while exhausted, so lore wise it wasn't used against any particularly powerful enemies. The only time it was used was on Zayl.
You’re saying that he is in possession of an artifact with “unlimited” power and yet is not “omnipotent”.
Do you realize how stupid that logic is? Omnipotence results from such a thing like unlimited power.
Simple, corporeal illusions are nothing to a necromancer. They detect which from which simply from the essence of their souls, or spirit.
Zayl managed to even bypass that and fool another necromancer much more experienced and powerful than he by stabbing a zombie in the back with his own dagger (which carries his 'aura') and then making it invisible. And even then the necromancer detected the presence/invisibility of another being.
Awareness is moot, when in comparison to a powerful emotion like the most base of fear. I've already said this. Everyone, no matter what, is afraid of something.
If he isn't secretly afraid of Link by now after all the righteous ass-kickings he's got from the fairy kid I'd be surprised.
Because you have great power does not mean you're not afraid of something. For example, a minion of one of the Seven Evils of Hell was in his right extremely powerful and he still panicked when a necromancer cast the image of his worst fear into his mind (an archangel), despite knowing better.
Yes, because his soul itself was actually being slowly absorbed into the wall and enslaved as to become a sentinel of sorts. If he had a weaker spirit his soul would have been absorbed instantly.
And he still escaped.
Yes, and because his power is channeled, not borrowed, the usage of a mortal shell wouldn't make a difference, the shell wouldn't last very long.
Like I said, magic uses the body.
It's not fallacy at all; it's a ward. Like, say...if you set up a ward so that demons cannot pass it, then they cannot pass it without time, severe effort and great power. Even then the person who set the ward would have to be unaware the entire time for it to work. Ganon could, but it would take him time and effort; and neither is practical in a field of battle.
Falling down a vertical air shaft into a crypt about a mile deep. They're two different things but they have the same amount of lethality.
Splattered into goop or being turned into ash, makes no real difference. The runes of Trag'Oul on his cloak protect him from both.
Anti-teleportation can be woven into the spell, as shown in Moon of the Spider. Salene attempted to teleport out, but she felt some kind of barrier in her mind that couldn't be removed.
If he's encased in a bone prison the only thing he can do is beat away at it until it collapses (vengeance > Triforce, there are some things that are beyond magic) or wait until the magic wears off.
Shields, even if enchanted, are still corporeal items. Completely magical barriers aren't.
Look, if you're going to argue at least provide reasoning instead of making ridiculous declarations without even bothering to explain why, let alone prove completely.
Where is the reasoning, that he would not be fooled by illusions cast by a necromancer? The proof? Sight is sight. Hearing is hearing. How does Ganon tell one illusion from another, or the real necromancer? He doesn’t.
You can say it as much as you like, without proper reasoning that statement is completely worthless.
Ganon seems to have two teleports, the "blink" teleport and the much slower "shadow" teleport(similar to Akuma's, from Street Fighter).
Blink is instantaneous. So is the necromancer's, but the necromancer just has a slightly faster start up time. They're not faster; they're about the same spell-wise. Ganon teleports in, necromancer teleports away. Or if it's a disguise, just counterattack.
You're missing the point entirely. I'm not talking about the power used to cast, only the effect.
Which do you think is more difficult, escaping from being frozen up, or escaping from stone hands leeching your soul while turning you into stone, while you can't breathe, barely think, can't use your hands or legs, and are utterly exhausted?
"Link can't be affected by Skill A or Effect B from Ganon because he has item A and enchantment B. Outside character does not possess item A or enchantment B so Ganon instantly wins, blah blah blah"
I thought Nozdormu set the rules up to ward you from doing it again, you were attempting that fallacy in the Paladin vs Ganon thread as well.
No, it's not a "little mana rule" and stop attempting to deny a basic integral rule of magic in fiction. You can deny it a million times for all I care, but your opinion does not change fact. I called your argument here a "bloody shambles" because it is so utterly wrong.
Magic uses the body. Even with the Triforce it doesn't constantly grant the user strength and replenishment, he has limits still. Ganon can continually spam magic and not be affected because the Triforce grants him more usage of magic, but by no means is it completely unrestricted or unlimited. Get what I am saying?
Saying something like that he is godlike and has unlimited power, etc, is simply a case of plot-induced stupidity. Of course realistically he is neither, seeing as how Link beat him.
Repeatedly, I might add.
Typical fanboy statement.
Unless you can provide me an appropriate counter for all those curses and tricks listed earlier (that doesn't consist of something like "Won't work on Ganon") then your arguments are invalid.
He'd probably get near an illusion, then probably go on a wild goose chase trying to find a necromancer that is:
-Hidden in invisibility
-Hidden in spirituality
-Not on the mortal plane (This means he can't be attacked, but can't make any attacks unless he departs the plane)
-Hidden among a crapload of golems disguised like him or mental illusions cast into Ganon's mind.
It’s like a remarkably difficult game of Where’s Waldo.
That's saying magic can't be countered with magic.
Seriously, what?
Yeah, and I'm sure "average physical endurance" includes:
-Getting his hand bitten off and still being able to fight ably.
-Sealing his hand back on with fire and magic.
-Lasting for ridiculous amounts of time without food.
You even said yourself in another thread that these are no mere humans, so I don't get why you're passing them off as "average" again.
Necromancers can easily summon elemental lightning (shown in novel), which has the same effect. They're basically wielders of Vizjerei magic that dabble with magic having to do with spirits and corpses and having some religion of their own accordingly. Otherwise, they're traditional sorcerers in their own right.
Once again, you need to inform yourself before forming judgments.
He has escaped from being crushed and assimilated into the wall and having his soul stolen/enslaved while almost dead.
I shouldn’t have to keep reminding you of this tale.
Great, another “he’s never been shown to” argument. They seem to breed faster than rabbits.
Ganon’s never been shown to turn a dog into a stick, does that mean it is not within his power to do so? What fallacy.
It’s taking control of the body, yes, but at the same time the victim’s soul must be put into limbo or repressed in order for it to work. So yes, it is technically a soul attack.
Considering out that Bone Shield is a maxed out skill, very likely.
Oh, we’re talking about corporeal shields. If it has a Zod rune in it, indestructible. Period.
If we’re talking about magical shields….what is he going to do, grab the magical barrier out of the air with his bare hands? It’s not corporeal.
“Oops, I crushed some stone replicate of the necromancer.”
Read above arguments again.
As far as I am concerned, they’re just invalid statements considering you have no proof or argument to back it up.
I find it odd how you keep demanding from me “has he done this” or “how much” and etc, yet have the audacity to make declarations without support on your own.
half the ppl on this team solo ok 1. are u kidding even b4 kratos got pandoras box just look at the things kratos has put the whooping on, i think krato's feats speak 4 themselves, 2. Sigfried pwned inferno the physical manifestation of a sword that can take out half an army in one swing 3. gannon he could at least stalemate him by himself 4. yoshi well it depends on if your talking sc yoshi or tekken yoshi 5. hayabusa still has doku's sword with life draining abilities and unlabored flawlessness as well as a bunch of other goodies. like i sed half the team solos 10/10
lol at the dragon Blade being a regular sword. Just the Regular Dragon sword in the current addition is stronger now. The True Dragon Blade is even more powerful now. Specially after Dragon Sword and the dragon stones embedded.
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Apr 3rd, 2008 01:01 AM
I just brought it up because Ganon has in fact lost against a teenager and the necromancer has defeated the devil. I never go by past accomplishments unless they prove feats when I debate.
