There is no contradiction. You're just ignorant of the application of logic, which isn't my fault.
I said that I didn't believe that Marek was necessarily more powerful than Yoda in the Force. But it is still your burden to prove that he could repulse a more powerful Darth Sidious's lightning when he was in immense visible pain and effort trying to repulse the lightning from an inferior Darth Sidious.
Fact: Yoda struggled and was under considerable visible pain to repulse the Force lightning from Palpatine circa Revenge of the Sith.
Fact: Marek did not visibly struggle (though the novelization mentions that he was in remarkable pain, he still held his ground better than Yoda) to repulse the lightning from Darth Sidious circa two years prior to A New Hope.
Fact: The databank and novelization confirm that Marek entered a state of unity with the Force.
Fact: Original trilogy-era Palpatine > prequel trilogy-era Palpatine in Force usage and mastery.
Conclusion: Yoda can't logically repulse the Force lightning to anywhere near the degree that Marek did unless he enters a state of oneness with the Force, which is your burden to prove.
I'm glad we agree that you use horrendous logic.
You're too busy relying on misdirections and deception.
The game cutscene does not disprove that Marek entered a state of oneness with the Force.
Since you're apparently a victim of selective vision: "Bombarded by Force lightning, Starkiller did not fight back but instead unleashed all the power of the Force within him,"
You mentioned physical frailty. It doesn't matter.
Where does Mace Windu say that Darth Vader is not more powerful than Kar Vastor?
Another lie. No you don't. You fell into a trap. You expect us to yield to third party opinions and yet you can disregard them when you please? Wrong. Debating with me requires a single standard.
Yes, you fell. You fell damn hard. I could hear the resounding "thud" all the way in Kentucky.
Thank you for the concession, though. There might be a glimmer of intelligence beyond the cloud of stupidity, dishonesty, and ignorance.
I'm not interested in you carbon-copying my statements and attempting to use them against me. Come up with something original. Now.
I do.
Fact: Darth Sidious is more powerful, by a considerable margin, than Mace Windu.
Fact: Darth Sidious is much faster, more agile, and more ferocious than Mace Windu.
Fact: Darth Sidious managed to threaten Mace Windu's life from a ridiculously compromised position with Force lightning despite the presence of Vaapad.
Conclusion: if Sidious goes in, Force fists a swingin', he's going to barbeque Windu.
You redefine standards of stupidity. I don't know if the retards around the globe are going to crown you king for your legendary obstinancy or if you'll be regarded as "the village idiot" amongst them.
Windu had the following advantages in that situation:
a.) Leverage.
b.) Greater mass.
c.) Greater physical strength.
d.) A lightsaber.
e.) A superconductive loop afforded by Vaapad.
Palpatine? Was on his ass in the corner, without room to navigate, and was being blasted in the face.
Outcome? Sidious feigned defeat to tip Anakin's hand. He could have still gone on, whereas Windu's reserves were noticeably and relatively weaker.
Obi-Wan's Soresu is such that he is able to keep Anakin Skywalker at bay; the same Anakin Skywalker who can penetrate Dooku's own defenses. Dooku disengaged blades and hurled Kenobi across the room, he did not dominate him or disarm him or outmaneuver him with a lightsaber first.
False premise. Yoda isn't a master of Vaapad or the shatterpoint charism, and is unable to replicate the same superconductive loop.
The idea that the fastest of all Jedi Masters, capable of deflecting dozens of blaster shots from shocktroops known for accuracy and skill, somehow requires a full second to recover from a jump is retarded and without basis. Period.
My argument, in all aspects, means everything.
Your contention was that being a Council member = "TEH UBERZ!" It is provably and demonstrably false and you're making an ass out of yourself for still arguing the point.
That's the point. Maul was superior to Mighella in every way, yet when she electrocuted him, it still brought Darth "I am one of the most highly trained and dangerous Sith apprentices in history" Maul to his knees.
Second, stop lying. Windu was trying to immerse himself in Vaapad from the very beginning of the fight, you moron. Read the novelization. It took many, many, many seconds for him to do so.
We're talking about Marek at his prime unless the author specifies differently. And the Marek who was "nailed" by Vader was much stronger than his previous incarnation who battled Shaak Ti. The Marek who was "nailed" by Vader had, some time earlier, manipulated a Star Destroyer with telekinesis.
You apparently have no concept of chronology. Stop being dense.
Your argument doesn't stand, you idiot, since Windu never said "LOLZ KAR VASTOR IS MORE POWAHFULL THAN VADER!"
This is the easiest argument I've ever had.
I read your post, dismantled it, and delivered a brilliantly crushing counterargument rather effortlessly. Modesty aside, you're completely outclassed here.
The Making of Revenge of the Sith says that you need to be "God, Jesus, Pellaeon, Publius, or NEAL SCHON to compete with Gideon."
You aren't any of those five.
I've, once again, proven that perfection really isn't a myth and that it is very foolish to argue with me.
(Unless you're any of the aforementioned five, all of whom I tremble in fear)
Looking forward to your continued efforts in the pioneering of stupidity. Reach for the stars, buddy!
gideon, having read the novelization, i agree with almost all of your point. i do, however question taking Nick Rostu's viewpoint that Vader was stronger than Vastor. in shatterpoint, there is a statement, i can find it later, don't have that book, that Vastor treated Nick like he wasn't even there, and focused solely on Mace. Rostu even states how that was okay with him, though he felt a bit belittled.
So Vastor never even bothers to focus on Nick, who, had just begun to realize that he had any force potential.
In Jedi Twilight, Vader is focused COMPLETELY on Nick, reading his mind, even overpowering his mind, and inserting images on his head. Nick has also (from early on in the book, and i do have this one, so i'll post the quote tonight when i get home) spent the time since shatterpoint trying to improve and practice his connection to the force.
Of course to Rostu, considering the major differences in the encounters with the two characters, Vader is going to seem much more extremely powerful than Vastor. As i said, i'll look it up tonight, but is the narrator quote you are referring to the one that came in that same paragraph that described rostu's impression? If so, when originally reading that, it came across to me, as describing Rostus viewpoint from an omniscient source, thus proving with a canon source (the narrator) that Rostu really DID feel the way he said he felt, but not necessarily backing up his assessement of Vader's power.
Just to add onto Gideon's point of the Mace vs Sidious lightning situation in rots,even with all the advantages Gideon listed that Mace held, his blade was still being pushed back towards Mace's face. In fact the blade got so close to Mace's face that began he to choke on the ozone of it.
i admit your question has taken me aback. to me, it seemed obvious that it would make a difference, but i can't think of a single source or scenario to back me up on that one at the moment, so i'll get back to it.
Maybe from twilight, where Vader insinuates that concentrating too hard on finding Jax would tip Jax off that Vader was looking for him. But i bet i can find something better than that.
Here is something else though i found weird. Pg. 161, Vader's voice is referred to as a velvety baritone. WTF? anybody else think velvety baritone when watching the OT?
He catches Sidious' lightning at 6m22 and guess what, we only start seeing him entering in the oneness state at 6m42, in which he states for a couple of seconds and them blows himself. All that time he was holding sidious' lightning. So no, he hold his lightning without being in the oneness state. As such, and if you agree that yoda is superior to marek, then you must face that even if sidious got stronger from ROTS to OT, the difference wouldn't be enough to make him overpower yoda with sheer force power. So as I said the burden of proof is still with you.
2) Windu said Vastor was on par with people stronger then the mechanical darth vader, as such putting him above him.
3) Again you are giving your personal opinion that sidious would own mace with the force. That fact is that we saw windu beating sidious and sidious wasn't able him using his force powers. So, this fact>your opinion.
4)What's your point? Are you telling me that yoda, in windu's place, with a lightsaber turned on, couldn't also hold sidious' lightning? As such, this proves that yoda lost his lightsaber due to the fact he had just jumped to sidious' pod. I don't even see why would you try to arg on this point. And your "yoda had just jumped there 1 second ago" is completly stupid as I already showed with maul's example. If you want to take movie time and judge it then I could arg that all the jedi masters send to fight sidious were patheticaly slow, seeing that even a child could have reacted faster then that.
5) No, I never said that a council member always owns non-council members, I especifically said that Vader stated that council members>kota, not that council members>everybody else. If you can't even understand what I say then don't arg with me.
6) She brought him to her knees because he didn't defend himself from the attack, he took it full power. What's the point here? That doesn't mean maul couldn't defend himself from the attack without suffer any kind of damage or pain if he wanted.
7) I am the moron lol. I pity you fool. It was stated that Mace reverted back to the vadpaad in the moment sidious shot the lightning. And depa's skills surpassed windu yet she lost when the source of pain she was using ended. And in shatterpoint mace uses more then once vaadpad and he didn't need an entire fight to use it. In that particulary fight, against sidious, he need more then a moment to use it, but does that mean it's always that way? I am not here to say why or why not that happened, but the true is that when we see vaadpad users using vadpaad, they can submerge on it quite fast.
8) You call nail to throw a table against him while he was atonished looking to him, without any kind of defences? And let's remind Marek and Vader's dialogue in TFU comic: Vader- "You know that is futile. I have nearly killed you twice already." Marek- "You ambushed me twice. You have beat me in a fair fight since I was a child". I would love see you trying to refute this, but I am sure you will find a way to try to not concede.
Just one final comment:
You are pathetic. I would love to see you in person actually saying these words. My god, how would I laugh at your face
__________________ I have never let my schooling interfere with my education
This is e-speak for "I can't make a valid point so I will just repeat my trashed argument ad infinitum."
Find something new, please.
Points to answer:
The cutscene does not prove that Marek only entered the 'state of oneness' after he grappled with the lightning. In fact, there is no exact scene or indicator whatsoever of his manifestation of the Force. He doesn't glow or turn blue or anything. I want you to show where the cutscene proves conclusively that he entered a state of unity with the Force after catching the lightning. And be quick about it.
Windu mentions that Vastor's raw power is something that he's only seen from the likes of Yoda and Anakin Skywalker. This does not disprove the conclusion in Coruscant Nights where it proclaims that Vader is more powerful than Vastor.
Period.
Prove that 'Sidious didn't use his Force powers' = 'Sidious couldn't use his Force powers'.
You'd make the most staunch Pro-Lifer see the upside to abortion. Use your head, please, or leave. Your assertion that Yoda was disarmed because "LOLZ HE JUST JUMPED UP THE POD" is without merit, since it happened well over a second after he landed. This coming from the Jedi Master who can evade three of his peers unarmed circa Shadow Hunter and deflect dozens of blaster bolts from highly trained shocktroopers in milliseconds.
I'm not interested in your lies. Nor did Vader say that a Council master was more powerful than Kota.
Darth Maul, a great and powerful Sith apprentice, was momentarily disabled by a dark side witch who was his inferior by a considerable amount. So even when wielded by a weaker opponent, Force lightning can still debilitate superiors. Marek was facing someone whose powers surpassed his (the official databank) and somehow wasn't disabled or injured even though he didn't bother fighting back.
Read the damn novelization. Windu was submerging himself in Vaapad long before the lightning was thrown. That is my point. He had been trying to sink into Vaapad to counter Sidious's superior speed and ferocity throughout the whole duel. It took several seconds for him to actually duel Palpatine on even terms. It is not instant. Period.
Read the novelization, Vader also manages to nail Marek with a storm of objects.
It's "How I would laugh in your face," not "How would I laugh in your face." Are you asking me how to laugh? You butcher your own jokes. Best just stick to the argument.
Oct 28th, 2008 10:50 PM
