Agreed I have got nothing against Loeb he has done some great stuff and some terrible stuff. Unfortunately most of his more modern stuff goes into the latter category IMO.
I've said this before, but average demographics for comics are fairly young. 14-18 (or some similar range) is a massive percentage of readers, and certainly for new readers. And Loeb is a great writer for them. Kids don't get into comics to read, say, Neil Gaiman. They get into it to see Hulk SMASH and sh*t like that. They get into it to see their favorite villain (Mags) killing continents and playing the typical arch-villain to a host of stereotyped characters. Etc. etc. So he'll always have sales and an audience, even if it's not most of us, the "hardcore" comic fans.
You can't knock Loeb too much for that. The guy does what he needs to do to sell comics - and that is, afterall, one of the main concerns for writers nowadays.
On another note, I personally didn't go into this thinking it would be the next Watchmen or Kingdom Come. Instead, I went into it with an open mind, knowing full well what I could expect from a Loeb creation - meaning it was going to be action packed, full of ridiculous feats, and play the stereotypical 'hero card' [as those are all things we can expect from him.]
It's probably because I'm not reading too far into it, that I've enjoyed this story as much as I have so far. I mean, if you really thought it was going to be a philosophical masterpiece, which solely targeted an 'older' audience, then you had WAY too high of expectations for it. It's meant to be a 'funner' read - take it for what it's worth.
I don't read Loeb expecting that either. Doesn't mean I enjoy it more. Large spectacles and battles can still be done tastefully. Johns' treatment of Infinite Crisis is an example. Or the original Crisis, for that matter. Or any large "event" that you've ever enjoyed (Annihilation comes to mind).
I enjoy the Ultimate universe, so I'm following it. My first post in this thread says it's not bad, considering my expectations. So we're kinda in agreement.
But, as before, younger audience + continued sales means that he'll stay in this particular idiom probably forever.
Also, I don't think he's consciously targeting the younger demograph. I think he writes a certain way, and it happens to appeal to them. Coincidental, not intentional.
Totally agree and I think Loeb has a large audience he can appeal to with this kinda comic. Hulk is perfect for that. He's good with the action that appeals to the demographics that Digi quoted. My only concern is that there is a time and a place for it and I don't believe the Ultimate titles are that. When reading Ultimates, Millar's run on the title is at the forefront of my mind, it mixed balls to wall action with political satire and strong Christian undertones in a very modern and quirky way which I found to be an extremely enjoyable story. When I think of Ultimates, Loeb is the wrong kind of writer. Hulk is a perfect title for him. With Ultimates my expectations were lowered like you guys because IMO Loeb would inevitably reduce the title to the state it's in.
But like I've mentioned this is no criticism on Loeb's part. It's clearly got a wide following and some enjoy it, some don't. I'm in the latter category for two main reasons. Firstly I feel that my opinion of Ultimates is always gonna be coloured by Millar's epic run so anything else is going to be disappointing for me. Secondly I think Loeb's simply been on the wrong title. I think he would do excellent action packed else-worlds stories for Batman or some kind of team book. Hulk whether you like it or not is definitely his kind of niche. I just don't think Ultimates is his. I think someone like Mark Millar or Warren Ellis should be on the title.
Final Crisis, Batman:RIP just show that the comic medium isn't ready for sophisticated stories, and would rather stay with Hulk, Ultimatum and such.
And Loeb is obviously consciously doing this kind of stories, in a way taking advantage of the age and (sadly) intelligence of the average comic reader, because he has proven that he can write good stories.
He sells and in the end that's what matters.
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Absolutely. However, you didn't really expect Loeb to change his consistent 'style' just for this event, did you? I mean, his work already appeals to a very broad spectrum of readers [ranging from younger to older] - and it's that appeal which sells comics, and makes money. Go with what works, as they say lol.
Wait, what? Of course the medium ready for sophisticated stories. Sophisticated has been doing well for decades, albeit in a more niche market. Most people who enjoy complexity and nuance still dislike FC and RIP for various reasons, which says very little about the industry and more about the execution of those particular storylines (both rather poor, by most opinions).
There's room for both, obviously, since it's a large market nowadays. Loeb's success with more childish fare has nothing to do with that.
Far from it, in terms of marketing succes. When you constantly have stories like Hulk, Ultimates v3 and many others at the top of the sales charts, the first one being quite literally only mindless action, then you know something is wrong. There are many people who enjoy complex stories but they are more the exception that the rule (the sales charts reflect this, and that is why I said 'average comic book reader'). Fact is, storiess that are more sophisticated just aren't appealing to the majority of the comic book public.
Let me guess, they disliked Final Crisis and Batman: RIP because they thought the story is too dense, or because the style is too disjointed in certain parts ? Not surprising. This gets us back to people prefering to stay with more simple stories, and like to know everything up-front. There is absolutley nothing wrong with the execution of Final Crisis or Batman: RIP (one of the only legitimate reasons people might complain for the aforementioned is due to the ending). I'd be willing to discuss any complaints on this stories (prefferably bumping the other threads and doing in there)
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I didn't say they have a huge market. But there IS is a market for sophisticated material. Hell, what bigger proof do you need than the upcoming Watchmen movie? And it won't be as big as the flagships, but will still be successful.
FC and RIP were mucked up with continuity issues, too much hype, and tie-in silliness. They still sold fine, so apparently there is a market, in terms of sheer dollars. But those aren't even critically acclaimed "sophisticated" material. Indie companies, writers' pet projects (I know Warren Ellis has a bunch), Alan Moore, Gaiman, the list goes on.
So yeah, the majority of comic readers are young, and they prefer simpler stories. Doesn't mean intelligent stuff can't thrive, they just won't be the things that keep the companies in business.
What does more business, McDonald's or {insert fancy restaurant}? McDonald's, even accounting for price differences. But there's room for both in the economy. Same principle.
That's the point, they don't have a huge market, compared to the series I mentioned, which is why I made the remarks about the average comic reader prefering more simple stories, and Jeph Loeb delivering just that, thus why the succes. Publish a multi-layered, dense story in one of the big 2 companies and most will start going 'I don't get it', 'What is happening', 'I hate this stuff'.
Well, it's not Final Crisis/Grant's fault DC screwed it up with Countdown and stuff (which Grant fixes btw, in the one-shot coming this week), which is why I think the story should be judged simply by what it is. Hype is one of the main reasons why I said some people might be dissapointed with RIP finale, seeing as how it was said to be the most 'shocking reveal in 70 years' or 'the end of Batman', which in the end was moved on to Final Crisis #6. Still, if you're looking into it that shocking conclusion could be seen, but nothing specific is stated only hinted at. And the tie-ins part is where I completly disagree. Grant flat-out said from the start that he doesn't care about all the other tie-ins for Batman: RIP, as for Final Crisis, except supposdley Superman Beyond, and the few one-shots, nothing else is needed either. This doesn't even begin to compare to other company-wide events and the tie-ins for them.
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Last edited by Philosophía on Dec 30th, 2008 at 10:16 PM
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I have got nothing against Loeb he has done some great stuff and some terrible stuff. Unfortunately most of his more modern stuff goes into the latter category IMO.
Dec 29th, 2008 11:39 PM
