The argument of Psionic based wonders like Onslaught and Franklin being potentially more powerful than deities could be because they have free will and choices in how they use their intent.
Gods will always be who they are and make choices based on who they are. Dormammu and Loki can never decide one day to be good guys. Or they will lose their power.
Franklins raw power + the ability to make choices in any direction he wishes can destroy or create a galaxy.
Whereas deities must in the end adhere to rules which limit them.
Psionic energy is raw energy.
Magic is just psionic energy configured and amplified by either universal status or worship.
I hope Hank Pym finds this link.
They can't cross over, with the barrier being weakened they send avatars, but not themselves. The real versions have not been on Earth in thousands of years.
The comic specifies the barriers separating the Great Beast from the Earth’s plane where temporally opened. Absolutely no emphases on the use, or creation of avatars.
This is greatly explained countless times in Alpha Flight and even the handbooks. The real versions remain in the Realm of the Beasts while they send avatars. Even Sasquatch snapped the neck of Somon, but as noted was just an avatar on Earth.
As stated the barrier is weakened so they can send their influence to Earth, but they themselves havn't crossed over and needed avatars.
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Last edited by -K-M- on Feb 14th, 2010 at 08:04 PM
Because as noted for them to actually crossover is impossible thanks to the Gods of the Artic spell so they use avatars as away to spread their influence. Sasquatch is the avatar of Tanaraq and that body was destroyed, but the real Tanaraq as showed in Omega Flight is still in the Realm of the Beasts. Even when the Wrecking Crew opened up the dimension, all Tanaraq could do is possesses Walter, but he himself couldn't cross over.
Hold on this explanation does not set in well. There are numerous factors as to why Tanaraq could not cross over. The main one being that he is being chained, and held down. It does not tie in well your reference. Which leads to my second observation, you don’t even see the actual employment, or use of hosts to act as avatars when Nate dealt with them. Only the reference of the Great Beast crossing over.
Tanaraq is chained and being held down? Where was this? They don't always need hosts to be avatars, but it helps them more to teether themselves as they have used spiritual manifestations (no hosts) and was referenced as such when Talisman took control over the Great Beasts during the Pestlience arc. Even Alpha Flight when they went to the Realm of the Beasts commented these were the real versions of the beasts, and what they fought prior were avatars.
EDIT: In the X-Man issue they had Kolomaq appear and said he escaped from the Realm of the Beasts well the real one isn't even in the Realm of the Beasts. He's trapped in another prison.
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Last edited by -K-M- on Feb 14th, 2010 at 08:33 PM
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I think magic is more broken. I really can't explain it because the first thoughts I think to present all lead to me saying "they're still borderline the same thing."
to 753 though, is that definition of magic thorough? The statement about interactions between chaos and order, does that apply to all mysticism just in comics or is that in all of fiction?
I was refering to marvel because most of the characters being debated were marvel and the discussion was following Pym's atempts at translating magic into terms of natural science. Lord Chaos and Master Order are the conceptual abstracts characters that represent or, more precisely, are chaos and order in the MU. All magic flows from them and their struggle; I have seen some similar statements in DCU regarding the origin of magic but not as definitive. Other works of fiction, of course, have their own mithologies to explain magic. If we take world of darkness for instance, magic is the power to weave the fabric of reality into new shapes through will, a concept closer to the idea of reality warping in the MU.
If we're talkinbg about all works of fiction across all genres, I think the source material would be too broad and varied to ever reach a conclusion about what is stronger. The definitions of what is magic and what are 'psionic' powers differ and might overlap from one work to another and I'm sure both would have universe destroying/ creating feats to them.
Yes it is a form of energy, but not of the same kind as psionic. The power cosmic is another type of unrelated energy in marvel and there are others as well. Vulcan's powers are simply not limited to any single kind of energy, but vulcan can't cast magic and his powers are not magical in nature, he can only redirect energy arround.
Psionic energy is the product of the thoughts of minded beings, it is not some primordial energy from where the others come from.
I think we can all agree that, different pieces of writing, interpret Psionic differently. No different then Magic.
In Marvel the origin of “psionic, and its source“ predate the current universe, as well as having close ties with the well spring of life, and comic powers.
Yes, sometimes psionic is the energy of thought, while other times it's equated with the life-force of all living organisms regardles of them having minds, or, more to the point, human-like minds.
Whatever the case, the PF is the totality of this energy and exists in all realities of the omniverse, past, future and present, including the one that preceded the 616. It is also the PF that resets the universes and she created 616 after terminating the one before it (galactus being the only survivor), so you are right to say that the origins of psionic energy lie before the current universe, because it is eternal - PF has always been and will always be.
However, the 'source', in fact the nature, of the PF is still always connected to the existence of living organisms (some writers say just the ones with minds) as the totality of their life force. So the PF and the psionic energy of the universe from before 616 was still derived from the living beings of that reality - in a greater sense from all life across all time, as the phoenyx is eternal. But the point is that there can be no PF (or psionic energy) without life and vice-versa, however, there are forms of energy that do not require life to exist like electromagnetism (even if the existence of these abiotic things only came to be because the PF originated the universe). I think that magic is likewise different in nature and connected to the abstracts of chaos and order, who also exist in all realities of the crosstime, but not to the PF.
At least that's what I made from the pieces and bits of all the cosmic stories I've read; x-men forever in particular springs to mind here. I hope this makes sense.
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Feb 13th, 2010 06:29 AM
