And you're talking nonsense for no apparent reason whatsoever.
Do not attack. I'm not using any kind of logic, because I am not claiming anything. You should read well who's the one using 'shit-logic' here. I like both characters and I didn't said Squall wins, hell, I'm not even trying to show Squall wins. It doesn't matter whom you like more by the way, if you think so, then you're another using 'shit-logic'.
You using the GFs as some sort of statement to prove Squall's physical capabilities is shit logic silly man.
You see, not only is that statement fairly vague in how it affects Squall, but it does not elaborate on to what extent it affects anything at all. We have literally nothing to go by.
While I am posting, the only strength feat I saw from Bergan in that video is very well within human capabilities. A strong human, but human.
Some sort of statement? So you're disagreeing with something stated in the game itself? I have invented something? Why is shit logic? I didn't said absolutely ANYTHING about Squall's physical cabilities here, what are you trying to say?
Vague? Nothing? It affetcs Squall perfectly.
We have creatures providing strengths, Magical and Summon abilities, etc. to Squall and we have Gabranth. But yet we don't know what Gabranth can do or is capable of. Are you supporting Gabranth? If you do, please provide feats for him. And please, do not use: 'gabranth uses two swordz and squall just one therefore he wins because you will make yourself look really bad.
Vaan throwing Vayne says hi. OF COURSE he isn't super-human.
Vaan says hi, dammit. I don't care about Bergan anyway, I care about GABRANTH.
The only thing Gabranth has over Squall is Renew. Other than that, he hasn't done what Squall couldn't do. What, Gabranth can use two swords? How cute but Squall is a top military mercenary and has limit breaks that make Gabranth's energy waves look like jokes.
Just to let you know, Judge Bergan was using the power of Nethicite. When has Gabranth used one?
He's stronger than Bergan who is superhuman to a degree we can quantify. Sqaull isn't.
It's called a general example. If you so desperately need a real one, Cloud has several strength feats from Advent Children. All those could be quantified. It's not someoen just saying he's superhuman; it's showing how superhuman he is.
Just describing someone as superhuman with no feats to back it up could mean they're anywhere from as strong as Spiderman to as strong as The Hulk.
You haven't done anything of the sort. You've said Squall beat some featless monster. That doesn't mean anything.
Most of those characters have shown quantified superhuman power. Squall hasn't. Cloud would beat Gabranth due to superior speed. Terra doue to superioer power.
Squall has neither.So it comes down to skill and Gabranth has that.
Not what I'm saying.
Well, kid, you go ask if you can debate with someone. Then tell them you have no evidence whatsoever but one vague quote with no substantiation. They'll straighten you out on how you're not debating right at all.
And this entire post is laughably wrong.
Balamb Garden is a joke of a military insttitue.
Gameplay and non-canon.
The power of Nethicite does not give you more strength than everyone else. If it did then Vayne would be unbeatable.
No it doesn't.
__________________ Earth is a beautiful addition to the Galaxy...but an even finer accessory on the hand of a God.
Your proof that it's non-canon? FF7's limit breaks sure were canon as proven in Advent Children.
Vayne did use nethicite and went into a mutant form. He was far stronger than all the Judges.
The power of the crystals gave Butz the power of a type of warrior. When mastered, they become a part of him. A Knight + Black Mage + Time Mage + Ninja + Mystic Knight would slaughter Cloud.
First off, Bergan isn't super-human, Gabranth isn't super-human, therefore he coudln't defeat a super-human (if Bergan were a super-human, which he is not). Second, Gabranth hasn't defeated Bergan, I can argue Bergan is stronger than Gabranth. In fact, Squall IS super-human. Hey, I love Gabranth, he's awesome and pretty strong, but he isn't super-human and he can't defeat a super-human.
Super-human > human.
No, it isn't. What have Cloud to do with anything in this fight? (That's your line ) Advent Children is something totally overrated, we don't see anything of those feats in Final Fantasy VII. Final Fantasy VIII characters have shown even more feats in their own game, you know. Despite that Final Fantasy XII got the technology to do those feats seen in Advent Children/Crisis Core, they didn't, so you see. Nothing can be 'quantified' that's bullshit. I don't know how much power Cloud got from his Jenova Cells and Mako, I don't know how much power a Judge receives for using a Manufacted Nethicite either, we don't know what kind of abilities, skills they can use, you can't quantify anything, that's bullshit.
Now, I suppose Gabranth has shown more power than Squall? Tell me, I am listening.
Are you talking about Ultimecia's minions? Those are the most powerful monsters/bosses in the game (including Omega Weapon) and Squall did it without kind of enhancements whatsoever. Ultimecia/Griever destroys their GFs and Magic, still Squall can fight. The stronger the GF, the stronger the user. Without GFs Squall is still powerful, because the GFs make them powerful. With GFs equipped they are even more powerful.
The one that haven't done anything of the sort is you sir, you have abolutely anything for Gabranth. 'He uses two swords.' WOW... Still I think Basch can beat Gabranth. Squall uses a Gunblade... WOW....
Name me some.
Also I want to know if is stated they are super-humans.
Is stated that the GFs provides above-human capabilities.
Gabranth isn't super-human, mate.
Lol. Also Squall with his superior speed.
Hell, does Gabranth has shown signs of speed or movements?
Power? You mean Magic? Squall can use Magic, you know.
You mean Summon power? Squall can Summon, you know.
Cloud and Terra wouldn't come to save Gabranth, ya know?
Read above lil hater.
Oh really? What kind of skill? What skills? Name me some.
Yeah, he is experienced in battle, like the rest of the Final Fantasy characters i all the Universes, lol.
I think you said Gabranth wins... Right? The burden of proof is in you for now. At the moment, you don't know how to debate, sir.
You're laughable, I can't believe how much hatred you have for a fictional character that doesn't even exist. That's hilarious.
Keep it up, I'm having fun.
Not that it really matters but if you were to use the Gabranth from Dissidia, then he really would win(IMO). However XII characters don't really do anything that spectacular due to them constantly ignoring each other. Gabranth might have age and kickass armor but that's about it.
Wonder how well Vayne would fair off against Squall.
You think i hate Squall? Do you honestly think Squall is important enough to hate?
He's not, buddy. There are fictional characters I hate. The Potentials from Buffy, Sousuke Aizen from Beach, that religious ***** from The Mist....
I hate them. I could make whole threads ranting about them.
Squall is not nearly deserving of that hatred. He's simply a bad character. Fiction is littered with them.
I'm really already bored of this topic. I made it while on an FFXII kick since I played it. But that kick is gone and this serves no purpose for me.
__________________ Earth is a beautiful addition to the Galaxy...but an even finer accessory on the hand of a God.
Last edited by Pyron_Knight on Mar 28th, 2010 at 12:18 AM
Yes, I think you hate (NOT 'hate' with all the meanings of that word) Squall. I mean, come on, you don't like Squall (and that's good, you can have a different opinion and is 100% respectable). But, my point was, that in these debates, you insulting or making fun of a character won't make the other one look better whatsoever. Like: 'the stupid main and weak character from Final Fantasy VIII Vs. the awesome and strong antagonist from Final Fantasy XII' that doesn't work. That's all, no hard feelings, just pointing that out. I hope you understand.
In other words, it doesn't matter whom you like more. We have to decide logically who would win or at least what characters have the advantages in a fight. That's the main point.
You can say Squall is a bad character and you must have your own reasons, in my opinion (despite that he's my favorite Final Fantasy character from the series) he isn't a bad character.
It's ok, I don't know what are Gabranth's feats anyway besides that he's an experienced knight (Judge) and that is skilled with swords. Other than that, I truly don't know his feats. He hasn't shown anything at all to at least have a rational argument going for him. He's pretty strong, I'm sure of that, but the Final Fantasy XII characters are pretty much the same in that aspect... They are 'strong' but we don't know anything about their true abilities.
Way to understate the truth. Vayne didn't destroy the sky fortress bahamut. He merged with its parts and the energy that came from the sun cryst which caused it to malfunction. ONE little piece of the sun cryst can destroy a whole kingdom. He had strength from the full cryst and strength already gained from manufacted nethicite and he also merged with Venat. He was far more powerful than just destroying an airship
Anyway Squall being my favorite FF hero, I say Gabranth wins. After his homeland is lost he easily is able to rise though the ranks of the empire, uses mist to enhance his blade, and was able to fight the party alone(the first losing when the dr came in).
Well Bergan is superhuman. Aside from Drace practically saying he was super human, he has manufacted nethicite, which makes people super human.
Now with that said, Gabranth is never said to use manufacted nethicite or not. Its easily possible and most likely that he gets access to some before his first encounter which would explain why the party didn't just instantly beat his ass. But nothing is confirmed.
Squall however. is not superhuman. Or at least to fairly say is vaguely super human. GF can possibly increase your strength, it is never stated how stronger. According to the game and a few ultimania translations, GF's grant people stronger use of para magic. Para magic being mention to be possible(but insanley weak) without gf's. Gf para magic is mentioned to be stronger than regular para magic, but way inferior to a sorceress
So Squall has access to mid level magic by his world standards. Gabranth has access and has demonstrated the easy use of magic(mist, whatever) to power his attacks. Now what's bad about this is neither have the edge here because it is never shown the full extent of thier power. We never see Squall use para magic to increase his strength nor was it mentioned how much effect it would have, and we never know how powerful Gabranth mist charging thing is as he only used it once and it barely got through to Vayne(with Vayne's power, though, its obvious why it didn't work)
The same I can say about Squall in being the most powerful SeeD at the age of 17. Gabranth is experienced, but the same we can say about most of the Final Fantasy characters.
Where it says that in the game? He says it by himself? I can say Squall uses the GFs to enhance his Gunblade, but I suppose I need evidence for that. I have evidence that Squall enhances his attack by pulling the trigger though, that's evidence.
Because it's a boss. Any boss can fight the party alone. He was defeated anyway, that doesn't make him stronger than each party member. I can argue that Basch is stronger than him because the bad guys always loses, but that would be a pathetic argument.
I already know that. He uses Nethicite.
Because he was using Nethicite, otherwise he's just a normal human like Gabranth or any Judge. I don't care about what Bergan does anyway as I don't care what Vayne does. It's Gabranth.
Exactly, nothing is confirmed, so this paragraph is meaningless.
You're wrong, Squall is super-human.
I wouldn't say that at all.
GFs does enhances your strengths. It doesn't matter 'how much', that 'how much' argument is refuted. We don't know 'how much' those Nethicites increases your abilities. It can depend of each one who uses it or how much of that power you use. We don't know how much strength those Nethicites provides nor what kind of abilities, so it's the same. We know GFs provides above-humans abilities to the users, that's what matters.
And? That's another ability that GFs provides, they allow them to have access to Magical Spells, that's something I already know by the way.
Para-Magic is way inferior to a Sorceress? You're making this up.
Para-Magic is the Magic used by humans, Sorceresses can infinitely use Magic normally and naturally, that's the difference. Humans needs to Draw Magic (sometimes) in order to use them. Sorceresses Magic can be indeed more powerful, but Para-Magic isn't weak whatsoever.
No, he hasn't. You mentioned it above.
We do. Through the game they always mention the Junction, to equip their GFs and we have the fact that they do. You don't need to see something to know something when you have even something that is stated in the script. On the other hand, We never see Gabranth doing ANYTHING of what you have mentioned, at all. It doesn't matter if 'Mist' or 'Nethicite' exists, we need to know if Gabranth does uses them to fight (Like Bergan or Vayne), which he doesn't.
I know the same can be said about Squall. or most FF heroes. Not denying that
He does this in a cutscene. He charges his sword up with mist. You can tell its mist because of the oh so obvious yellow mist that comes around his sword when he does it.Aslo mist is the main source of energy in FFXII aside from magick(which comes from mist). So that should have been obvious. But I guess enhance was not a good choice of words. Pick a better word for me plz lol
Yeah its a boss...Doesn't change or alter in any way what I said. Does not change the fact he was capable of taking on the party. Which was all the comment said. Nothing to it. I didn't say he was uber powerful because he fought the party and than instantly got owned by an old man. I just said he was capable of doing so. It wasn't even a point really. Just a statement
Don't take this the wrong, cause I'm a calm and not rude guy, but why did you even quote that knowing damn well what follows in the very next sentence?
I just said he could be vaguely super human. As in super human without showing much of feats? I'm guessing you just misunderstood, I was kinda agreeing with ya here.
We're arguing about characters strength, abilities, and who would win. What do ya mean it doesn't matter how much stronger he gets with it? That doesn't even begin to make sense. We do know more about nethicite and to a point what kind of strength it can give you canonically and what abilities it can have, but I already said that Gabranth wasn't even confirmed to have it, so why are you mentioning it even though you deemed the paragraph where I said that pointless before?
We know gf can grant access to magic to humans. And we know gfs can make them stronger. We know Gabranth uses mist(as he shows it unless you can explain what that yellow mist was) and we know mist is a form of magic(or is more usuable in the form of magic I should say) and with a stronger density of mist the stronger the magick and mist is everywhere in FFXII. we have 2 people using different types of powers, of course we should or need to now how powerful they get. For both Squall and Gabranth
I ensure you I'm not making this. Its pretty lame and boring to make up facts against a character in a debate. especially against one I happen to like. I don't really have time right now, but if you're willing to wait I can post some quotes from the ultimania and the game that support my point. I barely have enough time to finish this post lol
And just pointing this out. I didn't say para magic is weak. I said attempting para magic without a summon(something I didn't even know was possible until the ultimania) is weaker. I just said para magic is weaker to a soceress magic
Already been over this. Btw I'm talking about the Vayne cutscene if you some how didn't already realize that when I mentioned Vayne in my last post
Yes mentioning it through the game is a good way to prove they exist. But not how effective they actually are. Which is the whole point. and I'd just like to mention again that Gabranth does NOT have nethicite in this argument unless other wise said to have or proven to have some. Its pretty much the vagueness of gf strength vs the vagueness of mist strength
What cutscene? Refresh my memory, please. No, I can't tell it's Mist until I see and I want to know if is even stated that Gabranth performs attacks with Mist.
Indeed, the 'Mist' is an important and main element from Final Fantasy XII. But this what does shows? If Gabranth never used it, then it means you can't use it as evidence about his powers. We'll see.
Of course it does. Except he didn't take the party, he was defeated by them. You can't say he's stronger than each member of the party because the fights 6 people. I can fight 3 guys, still it doesn't mean I'm stronger that each of them individually. To put a simple and clean example, take Beatrix from Final Fantasy IX, she fights the party but she DOES DEFEAT THEM ALL. So therefore she would easily beat one of them individually. And if these are only assumptions, I can Argue that only Basch finished Gabranth because we see him standing in front of him and the rest is watching behind. Same applies to Vossler.
Huh? What do you mean by this?
Because I disagree about this: 'at least to fairly say is vaguely super human
I said I wouldn't say that, I would say he's super-human.
Feats? He didn't fought all of Ultimecia's minions without GFs, Magic? Still he managed to defeat them all? I suppose that's a feat, GFs makes them stronger, powerful. Without them, they're still powerful, they remain powerful. With them they are even more powerful. Simple as that.
I know that. Because we can't tell by ourselves 'how much' power they got, we can't, we can't quantify it. We know by facts, that they gain super-human abilities and capabilities though. Your paragraph was meaningless because Gabranth isn't confirmed to have used Nethicite (you said it) to enhance his abilities such as Bergan did. That's why. On the other hand, we know what GFs does and we know they use them. We don't lack the knowledge if they uses them or not, we do know they do. Unlike Gabranth.
Not so fast, show me that scene. Either way we lack statements.
Like the Materia from Final Fantasy VII. However, we don't know if Gabranth uses Magic. I don't remember him using a single spell on my party.
We don't know about Gabranth.
You don't need to put Ultmania quotes nor game quotes, I can put them for you as I know everything from Final Fantasy VIII. I was saying Para-Magic isn't weak whatsoever and the difference between Sorceresses. Although, if you want to claim that Para-Magic is weak, then bring those quotes stating such thing because I have no knowledge about those statements. But it seems you didn't meant Para-Magic is weak, that is all I wanted to know, we're done here. No problem.
The whole point is that we don't know if Gabranth can perform what you're suggesting, we do know they uses GFs though, by facts. Sadly, I can't say the same about Gabranth.
*I'm still kinda new so like how exactly do I make the video just show up on the forum?*
Gabranth uses the mist. It doesn't need to be stated as mist for it to be obvious its mist. Aside from using the mist in a way that was described in other cases as combining magic and weapons(one of the artifacts in tactics explains this as well except with guns I believe) but also remember that mist is the ONLY other source of usuable energy in FFXII world aside from Anima. Which are two completely different things if you understood Revenant wings
Now I say its vague (as are Squall's capabilities imo) because he used this ability on the one person who has absorbed manufacted nethicite, which is able to absorb, gain a slight immunity to and cancel out other magicks. (its even more fail cause in the same scene Larsa cancels out Vayne's magick with his own nethicite. that's one huge glaring design flaw for nethicite XD)
Why are you still on this? As I said. There was no point. In any way at all. It was just a simple statement. I didn't say nor imply that Gabranth was stronger than anyone with that. Its like me saying Squall has a gunblade. The previous sentence does not say anything about Squall skills with a gunblade are greater than anyone else or worse. Just says he has one. Same with this. You could have just ignored that is what I mean
Just a precausion. usually people take what I say the wrong way XD
Fair enough. I still say its pretty vague. Vague means something not clearly grasped or understood. You can still know it exists(as I know Squall gf gives him power). I say its vague, cause as with Gabranth mist, it is not cleary understood how powerful does it make him
Don't you get more power after you beat the first guy(who is also the easist?). either way I get your point, but I always chalked it as Squall and co pure weapon skills the first few battles
I don't exactly remember how materia works in FFVII(been forever since I played) but I guess it works similarly. except you don't always need magicite to use magic
KMC Community Forums
Mar 27th, 2010 03:59 AM
Advent Children is something totally overrated, we don't see anything of those feats in Final Fantasy VII. Final Fantasy VIII characters have shown even more feats in their own game, you know. Despite that Final Fantasy XII got the technology to do those feats seen in Advent Children/Crisis Core, they didn't, so you see. Nothing can be 'quantified' that's bullshit. I don't know how much power Cloud got from his Jenova Cells and Mako, I don't know how much power a Judge receives for using a Manufacted Nethicite either, we don't know what kind of abilities, skills they can use, you can't quantify anything, that's bullshit. 
