Slade beat nightwing three times. The first two times had to be the most humiliating defeats NW has suffered. When I say he casually beat him, I mean like effortlessly.
oh yeah, NW said himself slade was faster and stronger in the first fight, although it was already painfully evident.lol
Batman contended with slade, then got savagely beaten in a way I don't see any of the marvel combatants achieving(except wolverine).
In his best performance against Slade, Nightwing admitted that Slade could beat him without breaking a sweat.
There are certainly arguments as to why he shouldn't be placed that high (he was one-shotted or casually handed by Shiva on two separate ocassions, not that it's a terrible showing given how good Shiva is), but he's constantly improved to the point that, in the latest years, he has had very impressive skill showings in combat, not limited to beating Ra's Al Ghul, doing very good against the Batman clone in hand to hand, outfighting Jason in Battle for the Cowl and others.
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1. Wolverine: Wolverine has beaten more MA's (DD, Shang-Chi, Moonknight, Raza, Shatterstar ect) in a just a few panels than anyone. He is also one of the few who have managed to use something a kin to a pressure point on someone as skilled as Captain America. Wolverine has claimed he is better than Captain America.
2. Captain America: Captain America is largely considered the best fighter on Marvel Earth - he has beaten or stalemated virtually everyone on this list. He has claimed he is better than Iron-Fist, and a few of Shang-Chi's rogues have said he is better than Shang-Chi. One of the few Marvel characters stated on panel to be a master of every known MA.
3. Elektra: Elektra has beaten Taskmaster, who completely demolished Cat a man who has stalemated and beaten Shang-chi and Iron-Fist at his best, and completely demolished Deadpool. She isn't the same character she was when she first appeared, her skills as a fighter have improved drastically since her conception. Her skills have has evolved from being in the shadow of Daredevil to eclipsing Matt with her own.
4. Shang-Chi: Shang-Chi has stalemated IF / Elektra, but neither of those were really fights. His former rival Midnight Sun - has fought Mantis in h2h, and although he lost proved he was a contender, which says a lot about Shang-Chi, a man who has beaten Midnight Sun several times. Black Panther says Shang-Chi is better than IF. Zaran the Weapon Master says Captain America is better than Shang-Chi. Wolverine has soundly beaten him in a handful of panels (although Shang-Chi did hold his own against him in a training match).
5. Iron-Fist: Danny has stalemated DD / Shang several times, and is 1-1 with Cat. Captain America says he's better than Iron Fist, and Wolverine has called him an "amateur" but he may have just been referring to his espionage skills IIRC.
6. Daredevil: The Batman of Marvel U. He has beaten or stalemated most of the people on this list, his lower placement is largely do to anecdotal evidence. Wolverine beat him in a few panels after getting ambushed.
7. Black Panther: Has stalemated DD several times, and he managed to beat a mind controlled Iron-fist but this was largely do to his equipment and the experience traumatized him for a while. Based on his encounter with Deadpool, he is slightly more skilled in h2h than Wade.
8. Bullseye:* He has fought both DD and Elektra at the same time and held his own. This is largely due to the specificity of his training, he is greater threat to Elektra and DD, as these are who he trains to fight. If he trained with the same fanaticism to contend with the other fighters on this list he would be higher.
DC
1. Dragon: Stalemated Batman without trying, called Bruce a "talented amateur". He would have killed Shiva if interference hadn't prevented it.
2. Shiva: Nightwing and Oracle have both strongly suggest that she is better than Bruce, and Batman himself has thought as much. She is a match for Dragon, but he seems to have the edge.
3. Cass: I feel that Cass > Shiva is largely CIS on Shiva's part, although she is still a contender. Deathstroke says Bruce couldn't beat her on his best day. I won't fault anyone who places her above Shiva though.
4. Deathstroke: Has way more trouble with streets than he should, but on average still is above Batman (if only slightly) and Nightwing. He says the only way for him to beat Cass is with CIS.
5. Batman: He's Batman. He'll put up a fight against anyone on this list, and has stalemated most of them but there is a lot of anecdotal evidence against him and when establishing a hierarchy it hurts his placement.
6. Nightwing: He thinks he can beat Cass in h2h. Dick is allegedly the equal of Bruce now according to some interviews, but I don't know if I buy it.
The Marvel and DC lists intersect at the fallowing places in terms of skill. Iron-Fist = Richard Dragon. Daredevil = Batman.
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Oracle has also stated that Dinah is more skilled than Bruce...
Bitch is clueless.
Despite his winning record against her.
Aside from Bruce constantly chiding her about her technique, she's had some pretty inconsistent showings as of late that make it hard for me to place her over Bats.
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Richard Dragon's entire origin and series is Pre-Crisis, but it has been reference many times Post-Crisis being virtually identical.
The entire reason people question whether or not it is canon is because subsequent books have referenced Dragon / Shiva's classic Pre-Crisis history... which you want to ignore. lol
On that we agree.
He beat a mind controlled Shiva once and had side kick help every other time.
Like I said - Bruce's placement is largely do to anecdotal evidence and the opinions of others. By the large he has at least stalemated everyone on this list.
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I don't necessarily agree with them all either but based on fights and hearsay that is the most accurate list I could come up with. The problem is we have to rely on anecdotal evidence if we want to come up with an order or else we end up with a string of DD = Cap = Iron Fist = Elektra = Wolverine, because 9/10 when two heroes fight it is going to be a stalemate regardless on who is superior.
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Constantly chiding? I can only remember him criticizing her technique once, before she learned to talk (and really, he had just missed the finishing move she used on him). Oh, and when she temporarily lost her reading. He tends to speak glowingly of her technique overall.
Also, there have not been that many inconsistent showings. There were her on-drug showings, but post-that, the Network had her be badass, Outsiders too, and the Beechen mini had her get another Slade draw.
The only unassisted win against Shiva was the mind-control one iirc. Most of the time he only wins if he has help.
Regardless of his origins, we're dealing with a non-canon version of Batman (Earth 2) who was stated to be long dead in Infinite Crisis.
I don't see how that holds up.
Because 52 made it clear that the Richard Dragon in Dixon's series wasn't the one that's canon. Not to mention Dixon flat-out stating he he did his own thing with Dragon, independent of everything else.
Good.
Whether or not she was mind-controlled is speculative. Also, whether or not that affected her combat effectiveness is speculative.
The first time they met, Shiva was using nunchuks, and Batman casually disarmed her like nothing, and was basically not even taking her seriously until the second half of that fight.
In any case, she's never been portrayed as being above Batman.
Feats weigh more heavily, imo.
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Yeah, kudos to Marvel, who actually USE theirs. Suck DC doesn't do the same. Though, we might see a street or 2 in the Birds of Prey series. Gail seems to like to use them, but she hasn't used Dragon yet.
like someone else said, in Grayson's best showing against him(above), NW admits slade can kill him without breaking a sweat. Slade also floored him in two shots before grayson had that miraculous surge brought on by his conviction not to fail. Guess you can afford to pull that when you're the protagonist in your own series. even so, all grayson did was hit and run.
Also, where is Grayson's three wins? was that last one supposed to be a win?
edit:
lol, yet another easy ownage? found it in the album on the links you supplied
Nice list Srank. I don't have too many problems with it. Obviously you could state good reasons for any of those people to be #1, but I think Wolverine has done enough to have earned that distinction.
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Jun 2nd, 2010 07:13 PM
