Not much since Link gains most of his powers from objects/items rather than physical/mental traits. Although by the looks if it Scenario has not got the interest in argueing whether kain can or not. Perhaps Bayonetta can kill Link for Kain through inspire hate/mind control.
The strength feat would be throwing that creature with the force to not only take that tanker in its stride but to also knock that large guy a good distance back. Its above the likes of pillars, obelisks and large demons here.
True its not far above the rest in speed but if she can move faster then her opponents actions, like whats needed for TK, then those opponents will have some trouble in tagging her.
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"Gonna need more chloroform..."
"If you look down on us, judge us, condemn us... then you shall fear us!"
That was simply an angel, they get thrown around a lot. To make Temperantia fall you would simply have to defeat its own propulsion not its weight which is unkown, likely sorcery as it does not have jets or wings.
If shes only twice as fast then shes not going to be able to do much by comparison unless they dont have any distance between them. I dont think she has the power to destroy Kain before he simply teleports to make major distance between them. Then through TK or some magic the ball is in his court.
Actually, it doesn't really matter, does it? Kain vs. Bayonetta is the only remotely interesting matchup here. With Link vs. Kain everything that can be said already has been, many times, and no one's mind will ever be changed, and then I'm reasonably sure no one actually cares that much about War.
That leaves Bayonetta. I don't actually know that much about about her, but I know she has a time stop/witch time thing. She's also, IIRC, a bullet timer. Can Kain deal with that?
Bayonetta can bullet time easily, I think Jeanne fires at her from close range (a meter or two) and she can react to the bullet in flight. On the other hand, her time powers seem limited on her own reactions and what she can see around her and it lasts for a very short time.
I dont think she can damage Kain at all, the same force to throw an oil tanker is not enough to destroy Kain. Her most powerful attacks take a lot of time, hell most of her attacks do unless shes fist fighting/gun slinging.
Kain on the other hand has mind control, distance through teleportation (as well as surprise), TK, blood shower and probably more, even lightning could be useful.
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Last edited by Burning thought on May 15th, 2011 at 10:23 PM
Because it does not really stop time, more so slows it down to a crawl and for an extremely limited period. She does not seem fully in control of it either, when she is in certain fights it just seems to activate when she is leaping from a platform to another. Not sure if she can mix the two powers either, I think witch time takes similiar energy iirc. For example as said above a bullet almost strikes her but it does not activate and she just dodges said bullet. It seems throughout the game her actual use of the ability is on inanimate objects outside of gameplay like falling rocks.
Tbh, her stronger attacks will not make a difference since the only one that i belive would required Jeanne to do (summon Queen Shiba).
Bayonetta is not the only one with time manipulation anyway.
That'd be if the big guy just fell straight down, but in this case we see it being launched back. So the force from the throw would have to be > his weight to knock him back.
Twice is enough. If Kain's attacks and moves arent fast enough to tag her then he's out of options as his attacks, magic and TK are based off his physical movements and gestures. This means Kain wont have such an easy time at long range while Bayonetta will win when it comes to close quarters with here superior strength, speed and Pillow Talk sword. And thats if he can port away with Bay and Link shooting at him.
Last few things; War will most likely die first, (if its a good Link) Bay's time powers may be > Kain's and transforming into crows/bats seems like a good way to counter TK.
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"Gonna need more chloroform..."
"If you look down on us, judge us, condemn us... then you shall fear us!"
That would be in any case of his motion failing him. Also his weight is unkown, hes not necesserily solid. The reason he fell backwards was because the oil tanker/angel hit him, Although the force the angel was thrown was less than the force required to break thin steel whatever oil tankers "tanker" is made from so its evident that not much force was required to knock out the force levitating it.
He does not have to tag her to win,a lot of his powers dont require any kind of strike at all and she cannot react to something she cannot see or predict to like the dimentional teleport. She will hardly be able to damage kain with her weapons while Kain can kill her with but a strike, arguably from any of his powers not just his sword. Shooting? I dont recall any major feats from bayonettas guns.
True she could use that to counter TK but she cannot do much fighting while turning into crow/bats and in the time it takes her to do it Kain could have teleported in for the kill or back to a long range. Her weakness is the requirement to be up close to do any major damage.
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Last edited by Burning thought on May 17th, 2011 at 01:43 PM
The impact caused the movement, 3rd law of motion. Probably not solid but something that big could have the density of.. bran and it'd still be the strongest feat here. And we know its made of alot of stone. Dont look into the tanker not breaking that much, its the way the verse does it. For instance directly after we have the bus falling on Bay that should by irl functions be spiked on her, not be caught.
That I remember all of his techniques require a gesture of some kind, gestures that would not keep up. Anything Kain could do after teleporting < point-blank bullet dodging. You sure she couldnt? 'Cause having much higher strength than Raziel would suggest otherwise.
Even if he 'ports in what could he do? Even if there was something she can form back to normal almost instantly. That 'weakness' is covered by superior speed to close any gap, more so with witch-time.
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"Gonna need more chloroform..."
"If you look down on us, judge us, condemn us... then you shall fear us!"
I doubt that, he could be thin, he could be small and its still not even necesserily strong because the oil tanker pushed him away, an oil tanker is not really that heavy and it was not moving at that speed. Then I question whether irl functions such as physics should be argued concerning bayonetta if materials and functions are not followed. The oil tanker should have been damaged, although tbh the Angel should have been ripped up if the forces used to launch it AND strike the oil tanker since their not that tough. The angel therefore could not be thrown with much force or its body would have been ripped, the tanker would have busted and tbh the tanker did not bust when it hit Temp either since looking back again it made audiable noise as it struck him as he landed. It took bayonetta lighting it to blow it up.
They dont have to keep up with anything unless their projectiles then Bayonettas speed is irrelevant unless your suggesting she can clear the gap between her and kain and kill him before he makes the gesture. Thats not evident, in serious combat she is not all that fast at least not fast enough to blitz. No because point black bullet dodging was right in front of her, she can react to the chamber and has some idea of how to dodge, she may not even know Kain is there before the fraction of a second it takes for kain to strike from the teleport due to the fact Kain can appear behind her. Why would having higher strength than Raziel suggest otherwise?
Kill her in a strike? devour her soul into the reaver? I dont think shes ever survived losing her soul, not sure shes even survived being bisected even. "any gap"? shes not covered that much space on her own two legs to suggest "any" gap and witch time is of limited use since its only for a few seconds at a time.
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Last edited by Burning thought on May 17th, 2011 at 03:30 PM
Thin body or like a shell? Both are untrue though. And its still the 3rd law. He could only be knocked back through the force coming from the tanker, said tanker could only get that force from the creature Bay threw. Kain should have broken the wall when Raziel hit him. The pillar should have shattered/landed on top of the ground when Link threw it. Sora's Keyblade should have broke the builden instead of launching it. Dante should have splattered the egg-sacks when he kicked them. Kratos shouldnt of been able to move Cronos' hand as he's only move the flesh on the hand not the hand itself. All small details.
Suggesting both. That she could get to Kain fast and avoid any of his moves, like 'grabbing' gesture for TK, Negatory, when she shot at Balder he used his witch time to redirect the bullets and for when he set time back to normal launch them back at her less than an arms length from her head. Thats 0.001 second reaction time with no aim dodging involved. And its because of this millisecond reactions that Kain's moves, especially his slashes, wont get past her. As in the end Raz was eventually able to draw some blood, Bay being many times stronger wont have as much trouble.
Thought we were talking about her as crows/bats? As said he'll never be able to physically touch her... unless she wanted him to. Being faster then anything he's faces would count for something, and besides a second of witch time being a massive thing, she can keep it active for a good while. She's even had convocations with it on.
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"Gonna need more chloroform..."
"If you look down on us, judge us, condemn us... then you shall fear us!"
I was hinting at the materials making him up, they could be thin. Thin plates of ceramic, marble etc because of the way he is made up, very smooth piecies that fit together in parts rather than being one solid piece. The tanker already had some force with it as it was going through the air already. possibly, although we dont know how think, deep or large the piecies Kain strikes against. They may be small but important, I wonder how can we argue a lot of these cases while staying true to science? also their not that much smaller than the science behind what we are discussing due to the fact in an equation ignoring piecies of evidence would give wrong results. We know based on facts around the durability of oil tankers, the stone statue cherb etc that we have a lot to base durabiltiy on in the actual universe.
You cant dodge a "grabbing gesture" because thats not whats grabbing her, the bands of force that consist of TK materialise on top of a target to constrict them. You cannot really dodge them and specifically he used lightspeed which is the lumen sage "time stop" although for some reason PIS or high power/concentration requirement neither bay or Balder use their super speed or time powers constantly but I was refering to the fact that Bay was more or less in combat with Balder wheras if Kain suddenly disapears she has no idea where his attack would be coming from on the other hand as fast as Balder was when he arranged the bullets, she was still facing him and in theory had already processed him if not his full attack.
Raz drew blood after using his weapon the wraith blade, the spiritual form of perhaps the strongest weapon in LoK. The wraith blade, not pure physical strength was raziels victory yet he could not pierce Kain with the PIS of his claw tip before then meaing Bayoneta would have to use a sharp blade+speed and her full strength to pierce kain. Assuming she succeeds, whats this one stab going to do? little...I doubt a slashing motion in the hopes of cutting Kain in half would help due to the fact kain would have ridiculous durability across the side of his body her blade connects with hence why the tip of a blade is necessery but a small piece of damage like that would be nothing to Kain, hell even a normal man could probably take a single stab depending on where it is.
her crow/bat form is not quite the same as Kains mist form in the fact that it takes slightly longer for the bats to dispurse her form from whrere she was and return which is prob why Kain does not use his bat form to dodge attacks rather than mist whch is quicker. The more she uses her bat form, the more time she gives Kain due to the fact its far far slower than her own speed. I still suggest Kain can surprise her/TK her and if shes avoiding his TK constantly by turning into bats, or if somehow she can react to kain appearing randomly out of her sight range (she does not have precog) then based on chance (kain doing it over and over again) hes eventually going to hit her, Kains not "slow", its not like a normal human trying to strike Dante and Kain can process thoughts from nothing in frations of a second. Also dont forget kain has time powers as well, they are not as powerful as bayonettas but they last longer.
Almost any wound Bayonetta could possibly land would be fleeting to Kain as he could recover from it. Bayonetta cannot say the same and shes not fast enough to run rings around Kains attacks constantly especially if her witch time does not make eventualy difference. Kain would only need one teleport and he has the range required to keep the ball in his court. He could summon lightning which would no doubt mess her up.
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Last edited by Burning thought on May 18th, 2011 at 08:24 AM
Okidoke. A 1m think marble shell at that size = 6300 tons, would have to be 11cm thick to be 700 tons aka equal to Kain. Tanker had a downward motion completely negated by the horizontal motion. We generally go by what happened and how it can be judged, not the small issues that would be problematic in real world physics. Kinda why anyone moving at Mach 33 doesn't just run off the planet.
Can move from the spot where the TKer is 'grabbing', if Bay's on the move she'd be to fast for his moves to reach her. Eh witch time, lightspeed, same thing different name. If she's in combat and see's Kain teleport she'll be on a higher alert then just finishing a shot to have the bullets right in her face. Kain can in theory strike in 0.05s, Bay's reactions are 0.0008. Unless its 60x harder to turn and dodge then it is to dodge I think she'll be fine.
And by shoving his claws into his chest. Her full strength would cut him on each strike given the difference in strength, even that one small slash by Raziel was enough to make Kain suffer momentarily.
Well the bats are only to get out of TK if she's caught, by the time Kain 'ports over there she'd already reformed. You forget that in all this trail and error TK and slashing works in Bayonetta's favour as much as Kain's as for each time his TK fails she'll be closer to Kain, and when she's close enough or Kain decides to 'port in thats when he'll be at a disadvantage to Bay's superior speed and strength. Speed wise in close combat its like an amateur boxing with a pro, hard to do much when you're opponent moves twice as fast and reacts even faster. Whats his time powers strength, 2/3/5x?
Almost any wound Bayonetta could possibly land would be fleeting to Kain as he could recover from it. Bayonetta cannot say the same and shes not fast enough to run rings around Kains attacks constantly especially if her witch time does not make eventualy difference. Kain would only need one teleport and he has the range required to keep the ball in his court. He could summon lightning which would no doubt mess her up.
A small cut hurt for few, larger more rapid cuts will take its toll. Range < witch time, even a small dose of it can get her to Kain before he realises.. actually whats stopping her from slowing time and going crazy on Kain.
__________________
"Gonna need more chloroform..."
"If you look down on us, judge us, condemn us... then you shall fear us!"
Although its not the same feat, kain>the muscle power required to throw 700 tons over. Bayonetta did not actually move Temp herself, she just knocked him off propulsion using an angel which is not really that heavy and an oil tanker. Their not "small issues" when theres a lot of them together that can show us a direct somparison of weights/scales. Kinda the same thing I guess, although Balders seems better imo. "higher alert" is not the same as precog and Kains teleport happens again and again so even if shes looking all around her she could turn at the same time Kain ports behind her, shes playing with borrowed time, even more so if Kain has his own time powers activated. "small slash"=wraith blade and heart torn out? thats more than Bayonetta would be able to achive even with the strength advantage because she can only cause damage through thrust and her sword is damn thin, it woud be like a man being stuck with a tiny pin, only this man has ridiculous regen and has no more vital organs. Also, Shuraba (bayonettas katana) may be even less effective than Raziels claw tip due to the fact the blades edge is curved not rapierlike e.g. more surface area so her higher strength could be reduced by several orders of magnitude.
Unless Kain teleports back again then she needs to chase him across the map while Kain TKs, lighting bolts and sends all manner of nasty projectiles at her from time freezing to soul ripping. He could just mind control her, her "mind" cant dodge. His time powers are about 3-5x if I recall last, ill have to look again at some point but the creatures speed in the time video was reduced drastically so as fast as Bayonetta is, she would still be at a crawl when its cut into piecies and Kain can put his right next to her through teleportation which she does not have.
Depends on the "toll" part considering Kains regen afterall she cannot keep him in witch time for long. She can go crazy on him but witch time does not last long as I said, even if a tank was dorment it does not matter how long a man hits it, your not likely to dent the armour. Mist form works almost instantly so he could just live out her time attack as a spray of vapour or teleport into the sky, in theory Kain could keep up some form of flight using teleportatio and float wheras bayonettas madam butterfly wings are slow and ineffective for long periods.
3rd law says it was her strength that did it all. Imagine if you were Bay, with your reactions someone doing Kain's 'port&slash will seem like there strikes are moving at 1/10 walking speed. Even if he gets behind her if shes alert he wont get a hit in. Seeing as thinner = better PSI, not a bad trade off. Wraith blade's advantage < Bay's superior strength and superior time powers.
This is where Witch Time comes in handy, and unlike LoK's thats only showing is in gameplay where its 3/5x Bay's actually has it demonstrated in a cutscene being 1,000x. 5x and Bay will be half Kain's speed with 3x making her 3/4 his speed, but even with 5x her reactions will still be slightly better. Also been reading up on his mind skills; Control Mind works on humans exclusively and Spirit Wrack, maybe both, is a projectile.
A small cut causes him a good amount of pain, Bays would do more and leave more than one cut. Especially as her Time can last a few seconds in gameplay and much longer in cutscenes. Bad comparison as her attacks actually damage him. Really doubt she'll hold the stop if she cant hit him, or could use it before he activates it.
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"Gonna need more chloroform..."
"If you look down on us, judge us, condemn us... then you shall fear us!"
3rd law only takes into account objects in motion, but not magical levitation which was what Bayonetta defeated, true she directed where Temp fell. "strikes" assuming I was actually watching them do it, which I cannot if they have ported outside of my view. Imagine if a normal man was given the ability port like this and you knew he was going to use it (bay does not know Kain is) you could be looking all over the place yet as he ports he could tap you on the shoulder as you turn around, you cannot predict his movement even if your fast enough to react to it if you knew where it was going to come from. Why wont he get a hit in? being able to react to something fast does not mean you can consistently move and fight>the speed of said object, theres a big difference between reacting/moving out of the way of something and being at that somethings speed, for example a man can jump out of the way of a speeding car but he does not have to be the same speed as said car. Bay is never as fast as bullets while fighting.
Wheres that from? whats your logical deduction behind her strength being>the wraith blade? she has no comparison to the wraith blade, its a direct energy weapon powered by ages of souls you cant claim its strength is bested by her off the bat. Whers your numbers behind a slash of her Katana?
I dont know where you got 1000x from but its irrelevent when it lasts a few seconds in combat, not sure she can keep it up for longer durations, certainly not while fighting since it seems to go during long term engagements. Those are spells, I meant "charm" but both of those spells would be useful. Also when has bayonetta exhibited a mind beyond a human being exactly? if I recall her mental willpower is fairly low since by the end of the game shes crawling into the other eye and needs Jeanne to snap her out of it.
Again, what small cut? also wheres the "do more" coming from? your making the assumption her katana is equel to the wraith blade in weakening Kain, its well known Kain is weak to the wraith blade and its generally a powerful weapon, also Raziel has a PSI advantage in his claws so I am starting to wonder if Bayonettas strength will be enough, i may do some calcs as far as I can tomorrow. Whats this based on? purely on the assumption her katana/strength>>the wraith blade? or purely based on superior strength over Raziel? not sure she has a choice, she can only keep it up for a limited period and it seems to based around reactions/situations otherwise she would have it on in all battles. I wonder if her time powers are really very limited against actual opponents. Also assuming theres some distance between them shes going to have to get close enough to use it since I doubt it has infinite range (e.g. the whole world freezes in time).
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May 15th, 2011 06:02 PM
