Maybe he can maybe he can't. I don't think people are giving Muur enough credit though. He claimed Krayt was a neophyte compared to the sith of his time and then went out and pretty much proved it. Dreypa was part of the exiles and he was setting villages on fire with the force, while throwing out ridiculous barrages of force lightning. I am starting to believe that the Jedi/Sith of that specific time period were very powerful.
This incarnation of Sidious cannot overwhelm Revan with his powers.
DE Sidious is safe bet.
Murr was indeed very powerful and learned in the ways of the dark side. No under-estimation from my end.
However, people under-estimate Nyriss a lot. She is an expert Sith Sorcerer and subdued Scourge and Meetra simultaneously (both of whom are among the heavy-weights of the mythos).
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Jul 12th, 2013 at 11:46 AM
Murr send Vader packing (running from the world with his tail behind his legs) and infected the entire force that accompanied him to the region where Celeste Morne was found, effectively nullifying it in the process.
Murr did respect Vader's strength though. He offered Vader to overthrow Sidious with their combined might; such was his power.
I'm going to dispute your claim that Revan can fight while being stabbed in the back with a lightsaber.
They barely started clashing when Azlyn Rae (Jedi/Imperial Knight master) stabbed him in the back, mind, so not much was proven.
Also, I wouldn't take the Sith trashtalk like that too seriously. Darth Andeddu made pretty much the same claim to Darth Wyyrlok, and then Darth Wyyrlok beat him in his best area. Krayt trashtalked back in response to Muur's, after all.
I do agree that Muur deserves a lot of credit even so- Vader felt with Muur he could defeat the Emperor, after all, and Celeste drawing on Muur's power was a total badass and still not as powerful as Muur in the driver's seat.
They were the original Exiles who formed the Sith after having delved into the extremes of dark side research, after all. Oh, and btw, Book of the Sith says there was a top-five among them (12 lords total). Ajunta Pall their leader, XoXaan, Sorzus Syn, Muur and Dreypa, the last two being rivals.
XoXaan being the one who Krayt got his teachings from and studying under her holocron for decades, it should be noted.
Krayt's armor didn't afford him certain degree of protection against it? The fact that he was standing even after such a stab is an indication that the wound inflicted upon him wasn't life-threatening to him, thanks to his armor.
Revan could heal even severe wounds (inflicted upon him) with his Force abilities without need of medical attention by the way. Non life-threatening wounds wouldn't even register to him.
Read this:
"Your thoughts betray you," Plagueis said. "Do you think that Malak's powers were weakened by Revan's lightsaber? Bane by being encrusted in orbalisks? Do you think Gravid's young apprentice was hindered by the prosthesis she was forced to wear after fighting him?"
"No, Master."
(Source: Star Wars: Darth Plagueis)
So?
You have logical point here. A sign of an open mind.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Jul 12th, 2013 at 01:51 PM
I have this novel. He aged rapidly (side-effects of orbalisks) but his powers didn't diminish as long as he was biologically healthy enough.
Dark side practices can take negative toll on biological well-being of a practitioner. This, in turn, negatively influences the effectiveness of that practitioner in combat situations and/or otherwise. This is why many dark side practitioners pursue immortality.
Plagueis's novel have given examples of individuals at the height of their power.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Jul 12th, 2013 at 02:02 PM
Bane was back on his feet in an instant, turning to face his foe. "You couldn't bring yourself to kill her," Zannah said, her voice filled with contempt. "You've become weak. No wonder you tried to violate the Rule of Two.''
-Dynasty of Evil
Zannah shook her head.
"I know you went to Prakith. I know you went after Andeddu's Holocron. I know you were searching for the secret of eternal life."
"I did that out of necessity. I taught you everything I knew about the dark side. I waited years for you to challenge me. But you were content to toil in my shadow, to remain an apprentice until the ravages of age robbed me of my power."
Bane's body was in decline due to side-effects of orbalisks after he had detached from them. The events of DoE take place ten years after Bane lost connection with orbalisks; long time.
This does not contradicts revelation in Plagueis' novel which notes that Bane's powers didn't diminish when orbalisks attached to him.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Jul 12th, 2013 at 02:09 PM
My gut tells me Sidious would waste Revan. He's taken out three council members, who were regarded as celebrated swordmaster, being among the best of their time, in seconds. Kit was one of those council members, who is at least on par with Kenobi in bladework. Kolar was another, whose skill with a blade allowed him to outright dominate Vos in a duel. And then there was master Tiin, who doesn't have any saber feats that I'm aware of, but he was said to have one of the strongest force abilities of all jedi of his time, and he does have exceptional reaction speed, which is a huge advantage in saber dueling. Palpatine slaughtered all of them quickly despite Windu being alongside them.
He's also effortlessly dominated both Maul and Savage simultaneously with the force. And both Maul and Savage have better TK feats than Revan. Maul has consistently owned and rag-dolled Obi Wan with the force, has collapsed a cave ceiling, has hurled a ship. Savage has rag-dolled both Anakin and Obi Wan simultaneously, hurled a ship, broke out of jail cell with a force wave, floored several battle droids and Anakin & Kenobi all at the same time, force choked and levitated both Dooku and Ventress at the same time (granted he did do this in a fit of rage, but it still shows the raw force power he possesses). All that, and yet Sidious effortlessly held them pinned to a wall despite their efforts to break free.
Revan doesn't hold a candle to ROTS Sidious. Sidious has far better feats and accolade's than Revan. I believe even Maul can put up a decent fight against Revan. Revan is powerful, no doubt, but even as of ROTS, there are not too many force users who can tangle with Sidious in combat.
__________________ "The power of the dark side is an illness no true Sith would wish to be cured of" -Darth Plagueis
Revan of course holds a candle to ROTS Sidious. He held his own for a time against Vitiate, BY HIMSELF. The guy is a powerhouse who can definitely contend with Sidious and even win a few times.
Where you're trying to put Sidious miles ahead of Revan is where your argument also fails. Sidious took out 3 council members, then subsequently lost to Windu (yes Windu is one of the best), so no, the council members are not "some of the best" but a tier firmly below the likes of Palpatine, Yoda, and Mace.
Add to the fact that Revan took Nyriss' force storm, absorbed it and turned Nyriss into ash, and you got one hell of a character here, more than capable of going toe to toe with ROTS Sidious.
I completely agree S66: I wasn't trying to make an argument either way, but really, my gut does tell me that he's somewhere around Plagueis' level.
But, of course, so can everyone say about anyone.
Regarding feats and accolades, Sidious would slaughter Revan completely, I agree. Had Fisto not had Windu at his side he would undoubtedly been blitzed.
This is Revan's best speed feat than I can find is moving in a blur while deflecting blaster bolts:
Revan was in motion, his lightsaber flashing to life, before the words had finished spilling from her mouth. As Veela and two of the others—reacting slightly faster than the rest—fired their blasters, the green blade transformed into a spinning, twirling blur as he used it to deflect their bolts back in the direction of the shooters.
-Revan
Tiin's best is moving his blade so fast it expands into a shield:
Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Tiin, and Ki-Adi-Mundi surged from the pyramid entrance, engaging the terrorists that had driven them back. A quarter of the way across the immense plaza, the Jedi spread out in a wedge formation, their constantly moving blades fending off blaster bolts loosed from ahead and to either side. Behind the energy barrier fashioned by the lightsabers, Yaddle, Depa, Vergere, and two of the judicials raced out to divert fire from the rear.
-Cloak of Deception
Fisto blows both out of the water, moving so fast that Kenobi saw him as moving in three directions at once:
From the corner of his eye he saw that Kit had made his way almost to Ventress, and what he saw as the Nautolan increased his efforts almost broke Obi-Wan's concentration. His companion was a living, martial hurricane, his body moving in two and three directions at once, joints flexing, unlimited by human vertebral restraints.
-The Cestus Deception
Besides, S66, you already know my say on Revan vs Maul.
The only thing Vitiate at that time has on ROTS Sidious, is probably telepathy, and force drain.
Sidious, most likely, will not come at Revan the way Vitiate did. Vitiate wasted time trying to dominate Revan mentally. What is Revan going to do if Sidious comes at him the way he did the council members? You can ignore the feats and accolades of the council member all you want, but it changes nothing I said. Being firmly below Yoda, Sidious, and Windu, does not mean they are not among the best. What has Revan done in sabers that suggests he is bigger threat than all three of those masters put together saber-wise? Also, what feats in TK does Revan have that would suggest he can overcome a TK attack from someone who can easily over power two extremely powerful TK user simultaneously?
As for Sidious losing to Mace, I've went over that argument countless times, and it gets old. And I don't see why I should waste my time going over it with someone who claims Krayt would stomp someone like Dooku, and disregards feats of characters from an era you don't like.
__________________ "The power of the dark side is an illness no true Sith would wish to be cured of" -Darth Plagueis
I understand where you're coming from. My gut feeling has always told me that Lucas intended for Windu to be superior to Dooku, but I would fail miserably in trying to argue it in a vs. forum.
__________________ "The power of the dark side is an illness no true Sith would wish to be cured of" -Darth Plagueis
Jul 12th, 2013 11:16 AM
