Jedi aren't elected to the council on the merits of their martial skills (Coleman Trebor was apparently the galaxy's most badass diplomat, whereas esteemed duelists like Anoon Bondera and Cin Drallig never made it to the council). So the performance of one council member can hardly be representative of them all, for good or worse.
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"The Daemon lied with every breath. It could not help itself but to deceive and dismay, to riddle and ruin. The more we conversed, the closer I drew to one singularly ineluctable fact: I would gain no wisdom here."
Yeah but why are we bringing logic into this? Trebor is probably an historical anomaly being elected with such weak strength which makes some sense given that the Council has seen a thousand years of peace from the Sith.
Don't know why he's being shown as a baseline of anything.
We have people defend Fisto and Kolar all the time.
Heck, I defend Fisto! I think he's the best of the B-team and a very solid fighter.
Oh, it'll definitely be effort. Mara is the stronger, but Fisto isn't an easy matchup for almost anyone.
Council isn't *just* strength, but when one is elected to the council for strength, that's generally a good sign of how strong they are. Fisto, Tiin, Kolar, Ki-Adi, Shaak Ti? They all got their slots based on being rather badass.
The fact of the matter is, most of the order's strongest warriors are on the council, and tend to clump around a few strength ranges.
Trebor being on the council clearly shows that members of the council are not chosen by strength (at least during that era). So the fact that a Jedi is on the Council does not mean they are a bad ass combatants and can be little more than fodder.
In swtore it states that while strength isn't a deciding factor in becoming a member of the council, the best candidates are usually those with a naturally strong affinity with the Force. Like that the wisest Jedi tend to be the most powerful anyway.
Eh, situational. And point is, they have defenders.
At the top and bottom, sure, but there's definite clumping.
Plo Koon, Shaak Ti, Fisto, Mundi, Kolar, Tiin, Adi Galli. There's a gentle curve there, while there's differences they aren't too far apart.
And if you take characters from other eras, they slot in there fine too, with Corran Horn more around the Plo Koon zone, Kam Solusar near the lower end, Wolf Sazen, Ven Zallow, etc..
Zallow wasn't a Councillor, nor is Sazen to my memory.
If you believe feebs like Vrook Lamar or Kavar--perhaps a couple of their day's best--are in the same boat, or 'clump' as Kit Fisto or Depa Billaba, I would think that's where we disagree.
TOR doesn't talk much about it's council oddly enough, but Zallow's one of it's top people, and Legacy didn't get around to officially re-filling it's council.
Ok, the thing about Vrook and Kavar is... we know only a little about their direct combat ability. So part of that is simply ignorance, we don't know exactly where they fit.
It wouldn't surprise me if Vrook was, like, Tiin/Kolar level. What I call 'mid council,' the bottom half of the clump, maybe. Considering he did get sent as the lead in combat ops a lot and makes a hard boss fight. But it might be that his age has slowed him down and he merely *was* that level but has declined below it. Who can say, really?
And Kavar, well, we really don't know much about him but his rep, the Mandalorians though he, not Revan, would lead the war against them! So he could be pretty badass. Then again, it could be more like Even Piell, who's below the big clump while still being a reasonably strong fighter, and more famous for his leadership than personal ability. As we didn't really see him fight, it's quite hard to say.
So, personally? I'd put them notably weaker than Fisto and Depa, who're high-council clump, but some of that is guesswork.
On the flip side, Atris, who we have more combat info on, I would have no problem putting in the high-council end of the clump.
Like I've said, not all council members are in such clumps, but many council warriors tend to fit in with it.
You seem to have a lot of opinion on the precise level of power of someone we have not actually seen fight much at all. On what do you draw your conclusion? Like I said, 'it would not surprise me,' but I have to use guesswork.
So, considering your level of certainty, what do you have to actually back up what you have to say?
In the book Tarkin Tarkin basically says Piell was a shitty tactician and his strategy lead to them being captured by the Separatists and brought to Lola Sayu. But Tarkin did say that Piell was a pretty good fighter. Maybe I'll look for the exact quote.
Ah. Still, "Piell level strength but a good general" would make someone an obvious choice for council. More wisdom and knowledge in Piell's case, I guess.
There was a magazine that compared Shaak to Even. It gave her a 9 and 8 in force power and strength, and him a 7 and 6 respectively. So, while he's skilled in every lightsaber style and seems solid all-around, the higher members of the council obviously leave him in the dust.
"Despite their refusal to come to Eriadu's aid against pirates, Tarkin had respected Jedi as peacekeepers, but as generals they had proven failures. The Jedi Master with whom he had served most closely during the Clone Wars was Even Piell, to whom Tarkin's cruiser had been assigned. Brusque and bellicose, the Lannik excelled in lightsaber combat, seeming to have integrated every possible fighting style, but he, too, had his flaws as a strategist. If Piell had deferred to Tarkin during their mission to investigate a hyperlane shortcut into Separatist-held space, they might have avoided capture and imprisonment, and perhaps the Lannik would have survived at least until the end of the war."
Vrook doesn't have enough dueling renown to defeat Vos - Kolar curbstomped Vos. It's your utter lack of knowledge on, or complete underestimation of, Vos, that prevents you from recognizing that Kolar is one of the best duelists of the era.
__________________ “The galaxy must experience the pain of death and the rapture of rebirth as I have. I will bring chaos. It is time for war.”
Mar 8th, 2015 06:44 PM
