Ok well you've provided examples of what you consider to be the best lyrics from each genre, now it's time to connect the dots and prove that the lyrics in the second half are better than the lyrics in the first half.
And for the record, I don't think you really chose the "cream of the crop" in hip hop. I mean obviously you love songs like parabola for the content, not the words used correct? Cause the words (like most rock songs ) are pretty simple and straight forward, cause like you said before they have no need to "show off." So if you're judging the rock lyrics on content, why would you choose rap lyrics that have little to no content value? I mean the verses you chose were great and all when it comes to said literary devices, but they weren't really ABOUT anything. I could think of plenty of hip hop songs that have strong content the same way Tool songs do.. maybe not in the same "philosophical" way, but that's what leads us back to "different strokes for different folks."
Well you show what you believe to be the cream of the crop in terms of hip hop lyricism, content wise. A few, infact. I'll then post a couple Tool songs and we can analyse what lyrics are superior in terms of literature, meaning and such.
I think it's quite futile trying to find a hip hop lyric that will be anything worthy of thinking to compare to Tool, but by all means I'm up for being surprised.
Well honestly even if we "analyse" the lyrics all day long, you're never going to be able to "prove" that the Tool lyrics are better so this whole thing is pretty futile.
But here are some examples of what I consider the cream of the crop hip hop lyrics content wise..
Gender: Male Location: Sailing the seas of cheese.
Here's one of my favorite Pulp songs called I Spy.
I Spy Lyrics
by Pulp
I spy a boy, I spy a girl.
I spy the worst place in the world, in the whole world.
Oh you didn't do bad, you made it out, I'm still stuck here oh but I'll get out.
Oh yeah I'll get out.
Can't you see a walks among you seeing through your pretty lives.
Do you think I do these things for real?
I do these things just so I survive. And you know I will survive.
It may look to the untrained eye
I'm sitting on my arse all day
And I'm biding my time until I take you all on my Lords and Ladies
I will prevail, I cannot fail.
Cause I spy.
Oh I've got your numbers taken notes and all the ways your minds work out.
I've studied and your mind's just the same as mine except that you're just clever swines
You never let masks slip, you never admit to it, you're never hurried.
Oh no no no.
And every night I hold my plan how I'll get my satisfaction
How I will blow your paradise away away away ooh.
Cause I spy.
It's just like in the old days - I used to compose my own critical notices in my head.
The crowd gasps at Cocker's masterful control of the bicycle
Skilfully avoiding the dog turd next to the corner shop.
Imagining a blue plaque above the place I first ever felt a girl's breasts,
the whole 'nana.
You've got to wait for the best.
You see you should take me seriously. Very seriously indeed.
Cause I've been sleeping with your wife for the past sixteen weeks
Smoking your cigarettes, drinking your brandy,
messing up the bed you chose together.
And in all that time I just wanted you to come home unexpectedly one afternoon
And catch us at it in the front room.
You see I spy for a living and I specialise in revenge
On taking the things I know will cause you pain.
I can't help it, I was dragged up.
My favourite park's a car park, grass is something you smoke,
birds is something you shag.
Take your year in Provence and shove it right up your arse.
Your Ladbroke Grove looks turn me on, yeah.
With your frightened eyes and roach burns under your eyes and addresses
And thousands of tiny dryna-slides running a path,
running a path to the corner of your eyes.
And every night I hatch my plan, it's not a case of woman v man.
It's more a case of haves against haven'ts and I just
happen to have got what you need, just exactly what you need yeah.
La la la la la la la la la la, in the midnight hour.
La la la la la la la la la la, I will come to you, I will come to you
I will take you from this sickness, dinner parties and champagne
I'll hold your body and make it sing again. come on - sing again, let's sing again.
Oh yeah, cause I spy, yes, I spy, ssss.
I spy a boy and I spy a girl.
I spy the chance to change the world, to change your world.
Lyrics are sooo subjective. Now, AC, you and I have argued the merrits of Elton John, before. But, as I stated in that discussion, I think so highly of Elton and Bernies lyrics, because that is how if effects me....personally. And, lyrics effect people because of their interpretation of those lyrics. Now, I agree with you 100% that rap lyrics are terrible. However, I admit that those who find them...inspirational....deep...meaningful....are allowed to their opinion.
Take this song for example: I think it has some of the greatest lyrics ever put to music, but others might not think so....
GREY SEAL
Why's it never light on my lawn
Why does it rain and never say good-day to the new-born
On the big screen they showed us a sun
But not as bright in life as the real one
It's never quite the same as the real one
And tell me grey seal
How does it feel
To be so wise
To see through eyes
That only see what's real
Tell me grey seal
I never learned why meteors were formed
I only farmed in schools that were so warn and torn
If anyone can cry then so can I
I read books and draw life from the eye
All my life is drawings from the eye
Your mission bells were wrought by ancient men
The roots were formed by twisted roots
Your roots were twisted then
I was re-born before all life could die
The Phoenix bird will leave this world to fly
If the Phoenix bird can fly then so can I
__________________ "If I were you"
"If you were me, you'd know the safest place to hide...is in sanity!
B) Lyrics are only subjective in terms of what we prefer. Like music. I can't make you hear how great I think a band are, vice versa. There ARE areas where it's probably. It was to my understanding that we were discussing who uses the balance of technical ability with lyrics and actual intelligent/meaningful subject matter. In which case, I don't think Maynard can be topped by any hip hop lyricist. Or any of rock's best.
That's fine. Personally, I find it outlandish to place anyone as high as you place Maynard as far as lyricism goes. And Maynard happens to be one of my favorite rock lyricists, but the way you act as if he's miles and miles above other lyricists I like.. I just think it's a bit over the top. But it's your opinion, and I'm fine with that. The only thing I'm not fine with is you claiming that it's something factual.
I believe it to be one of those issues that can't factually be proven (where preference is concerned) but is more or less true.
I cannot make you admit that Maynard is better than any hip hop lyricist, but I think it's about as borderline to being a fact as you can get. No hip hop lyricist has ever or will ever write something of the quality that I just showed you.
Forgot what is (in my opinion) the best Tool song....
Anyway, I do think that Maynard is probably the best lyricist, by far. Honestly, I listen to a lot of different music, some has excellent lyrics, some has crap...but I really haven't heard anything yet that approaches the lyrics that he writes.
And really when it comes to "technique" I'd say the best rappers outdo the best rock lyricists, although you just consider it "showing off" rap lyricism revolves around literary devices and complicated rhymes..
I'm the one arguing that this whole thing is subjective and can't be proven or disproven. How does it make sense for me to argue that it's subjective while trying to disprove your preference on lyricism? That makes no sense.
As I said, Canibus uses all the techniques and complex devices under the sun. It doesn't change the fact that he's just leaning on the thesaurus. It's not natural use, it's just trying hard. Something Maynard could do, something Rivers Cuomo could do. They don't, they write naturally and they're still producing transcendtal lyrics that surpass that of hip hop MCs. If you PREFER the hip hop MCs, fine. You can't deny that what Maynard writes is beyond hip hop MCs, you can't sanely deny that.
You missed my point. Preference or not, my claim of Maynard being better than any lyricist in hip hop is more likely to be true than not true. The lyrics you posted in terms of subject matter and topic, literacy, fall way short of anything I just posted. If you prefer them, fine.
I don't think there is a best Tool song really. I think there are ones better than others but once you get to a certain level it's impossible to call.
I'm not really familiar with Canibus so I'm not going to argue him personally.. but technical rappers like Nas and GZA don't rely on a thesaurus at all. In fact I don't get where you think a thesaurus would help one with developing complex rhyme schemes and punchlines or the storytelling abilities often displayed in hip hop lyricism. That's what I consider technique, bending and manipulating words to sound good when put together beyond just the basic "meaning" of what they are saying.. without even understanding the message of the song I can say that Nas's lyrics SOUND good cause the words go great together, I can't say that about Maynard cause the appreciation I get from his lyrics are from the content alone, not from the words used. Get me?
"More likely to be true than false?" It doesn't work like that. If it's a matter of fact it's either true or false.. not just leaning more to one side than the other. This happens to be a matter of opinion. Opinions can't be "more" or "less" true no matter how strongly you believe in them.
Anyway... I gotta go to work. It's been nice. Peace.
I love Illmatic but I lost respect for Nas when he became hypocrite of the century. The man contradicts himself more than anyone. GZA is one of my favourite MCs ever, but nothing he has produced is on intelligence par with what Maynard comes up with lyrically. Both in literacy or subject.
I do get you there, that's fine. It doesn't mean that Maynard isn't using words that are equally impressive, just doesn't stand out as much.
Well opinion can be wrong and some opinions are more valid than others.
I'm not denying it's opinion, you can sit there and deny it all day long due to preference. You're obviously not aware that the point I'm making is that Maynard's lyrics (see the ones I posted) are beyond any MC's ability.
KMC Community Forums
Oct 2nd, 2005 02:52 PM
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