So he trained a Padawan and that means he had a lot of saber training?
Qui-Gon has been sprinting through the desert and Maul just dropped down on him. You try fighting after sprinting a couple of miles. And to say Qui-Gon's not even that good is riduculous.Only Maul, Mace, Yoda, Sidious, Obi-Wan (ROTS), Anakin (ROTS), Tyranus and Vader (ROTS) have outdueled fought better than him and they're the best of the best.
Qui-Gon was driving Maul back for a while.
All we have to tell how strong Mace is in TPM is the TPM novel, so unless you can contridict what it says...
Yeah they have, not many here, though. Most people here under-estimate both Qui-Gon and Maul.
No, TPM novel states Maul is stronger than Obi-Wan. By quite a bit. The only reason Obi won was because Maul got overconfident.
Maul actually lost because he couldnt sense what obiwan was about to do he had forgotten about the lightsaber he sensed danger but he didnt know what the danger was, also maul could have finished the both of them off in the beginning but he toys with jedi, so he had to pay, come now have you never read any maul books!!!
To bad they didn't use stunt doubles in the fights and to bad you retarded. It doesn't matter that the actor sucked at fighting, the character IS that actor.
Second, Mace wasn't on the defensive against Sidious. Stop shouting this Sh!t around here. Mace won. Qui-gon lost.
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How about you stop being an ass Glentract. And they did use stunt doubles on some special for Star Wars they said they put CGI images of the actors over the stunt doubles faces. And didn't you see Mace being forced back by Sidious?
Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Hiding from zombies
Maybe, maybe not, IMHO. But you do see reason to believe ROTS Mace > TPM Mace, right?
This seems evident, considering that it's been thirteen years. Mace is second to a select couple at this point in the entire series. Able to contend with Dooku, Sidious, and Yoda, despite being a few decades younger than the youngest.
Yes, but Vader's more overconfident and figts with more rage than Anakin does. Anakin has more patience. And in AOTC he's more overconfident than he is in ROTS.
I don't see this at all. I think you need something more than your word to back this one up.
Wrong. I found out where it was said. George Lucas says it on the bonus dvd for the ot dvd set in the birth of the lightsaber. he says in rots, anakin is more powerful than Obi-Wan. Which also means Anakin's stronger than Vader.
How does Anakin > Obi-Wan = Anakin > Vader? And define stronger in this instance? Better in force potential? Better in skill. Physically stronger? Which is it? This is unfounded and ridiculous.
But for all we know he was nearly as strong as TPM Mace since we don't really know how strong TPM Mace was (do we?).
By this logic, we can't say for certain that Mace Windu would beat or lose to Anakin since we have so many unknowns. mace as of TPM could be exactly as he is in ROTS, since he, as you say, sits on his ass all day.
But if you want to talk about reasonable assumptions, tell me how an early twenties newly knighted Jedi knight who was trained for exactly 13 years is equal to or better than someone who was a jedi master before he was even born? Hell, by ROTS, Obi-Wan outfought Anakin and matched him for Force powers... are you telling me that the number two guy on the council in TPM was weaker than ROTS Obi-Wan? If so, proof for this?
Well, no but as far as action goes I think he only fought on Ilum, Vjun and Geonosis, which isn't much.
By that same reasoning, Anakin only fought in a handful of places in a span of three years. Before that, Anakin has two documented actions, and only one of those which he used a lightsaber.
... Which isn't much more, really. Doesn't swing the facts in his favor. And considering we have even less than that in line for Yoda as of TPM, he must really suck, huh?
Yeah, he trained Younglings but that doesn't make him any stronger. And he pretty much stays in the temple. He's the link between Palpatine and the Jedi (as we find out in Dark Rendezvous).
Actually, it's shown in Jedi Trial and other places that jedi spar with one another frequently. Considering that Mace is almost or about forty as of TPM and was trained from an infant, he has a wealth more of experience under his belt. And considering his reputation as of AOTC and the Clone Wars for being a badass mother****er, I really don't see ROTS Anakin being better from what's presented. Period.
Prove that they used stunt doubles. I've watched the bonus features on the AOTC DVD and it shows SLJ praticing his 180 move sequence for AOTC.
You also missed my point. I was saying that the stunt doubles weren't fighting, the characters were. If the stunt double was only that good, then the character is only that good.
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So he trained a Padawan and that means he had a lot of saber training?
Read my above post.
Qui-Gon has been sprinting through the desert and Maul just dropped down on him. You try fighting after sprinting a couple of miles. And to say Qui-Gon's not even that good is riduculous.Only Maul, Mace, Yoda, Sidious, Obi-Wan (ROTS), Anakin (ROTS), Tyranus and Vader (ROTS) have outdueled fought better than him and they're the best of the best.
First, I wasn't talking about the desert fight; I was talking about the generator room scuffle.
Second, where the hell does it say only those people have beaten Qui-Gon Jinn? Lemme guess... TPM novel?
Qui-Gon was driving Maul back for a while.
Maul was in control of the fight. Qui-Gon was lashing out at him over and over again, never scoring a hit. Any decent swordsman will tell you this is poor form.
All we have to tell how strong Mace is in TPM is the TPM novel, so unless you can contridict what it says...
Correction; the only thing you're basing your entire argument off of is one line in the TPM novel. I bet you don't even know what hyperbole is.
Yeah they have, not many here, though. Most people here under-estimate both Qui-Gon and Maul.
Really? Well, you prove a case for them, we'll start believing then.
No, TPM novel states Maul is stronger than Obi-Wan. By quite a bit. The only reason Obi won was because Maul got overconfident.
So he was overconfidant for a whole minute? Really? Does he not know when to switch gears or something? Or could we flirt with the possibility that he was owned?
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: White Heaven in Hell
Re: ui
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Considering Janus just pwn3d your arguments into nothing. . .
Simus, a stunt double was used for Ian McDiarmid and Christopher Lee. That's it. During fall sequences and hard stunts, yes, there were doubles. But Liam Neeson and Ewan McGregor 'dueled' Ray Park. And if you honestly think that 'stunt doubles sucked' is a halfway decent argument, then I laugh. I could just as easily say that Samuel L. Jackson sucks, so Mace Windu must be so much better. Or that Yoda's CG structure makes him too good, and thus, he must suck.
Registered: May 2005
Location: .::The Anti-Fanboy Confederation::.
Arguing like this would make Cin Drallig the sabergod because Nick Gillard "invented" all the fighting for the other people and so he could pretty much waste them all...
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Re: Re: ui
Qui-Gon was driving Maul back for a while.
Maul was in control of the fight. Qui-Gon was lashing out at him over and over again, never scoring a hit. Any decent swordsman will tell you this is poor form.
Well Ben Kenobi (as far as technicalities go, Ben was younger than Qui Gon, so don't blame it on his age), Luke, and Vaders form weren't exactly perfect so you expect Qui Gons to be? Plus, you have to understand that the movies were meant to sell, not to be perfect in every area
Vader was using rage during the entire Obi-Wan fight. Anakin used very little for most of the Dooku fight. Heck, he's even the one who tells Obi-Wan to be patient.
So your one of them fools who thinks Vader's stronger than Obi-Wan and Obi only won because he happened got the high ground?
Stronger. Just in general. You have the OT on DVD, right? Watch the birth of the lightsaber yourself.
You know what Janus? Suck it. How damn stubborn can you get. George Lucas says Anakin's stronger then he's stronger. I'm afraid you cannot override what Lucas says.
Look again. I said that's what Yoda does. Snd there are a lot of unknowns.
Dude, this is the Chosenb One. And I guess by your logic Qui-Gon is stronger than ROTS Anakin, as well as Luminara, Plo Koon, Cin Drallig, Yaddle and a whole lot more (from TPM) since they were Jedi Knights before he was born.
Not sure. It could go either way, same as Anakin vs. Mace.
Jabiim, Vjun, the place he was before he went to Vjun, all the places in LOE, all the plavces in Clone Wars Volume 2, Yavin, the place all the Gungans died, Kamino, Munnilinst, the one he went to with A'Shared Hett and the one in Jedi Trial. Just a handful, huh? And that's the ones know/remember right off hand.
Yeah Janus, I'm sure Yoda has only gone of 5 missions by the time of TPM
Good job, you've just told everyone who AOTC-ROTS Mace could beat Anakin.
Okay, yeah, at first Qui-Gon was ataken back.
Good guess, thanks for helping. But no, Qui-Gon fought better than any of the other people in the movies.
Okay, he never scored a hit, but Maul only scored one. And it doesn't matter if he scored a hit, he was still winning for a short period of time. And I don't give a damn what any decent swordsman says about his form, none of you guys know whether it's a good form in a lightsaber duel. It worked for Luke in ROTJ.
Yeah, someone exaggerating. That'd be like Anakin saying AOTC Obi-Wan's as powerful as Master Windu and as wise as Master Yoda. But unless you can prove it was hyperbole you've got nothing.
Nothing I (or anybody else, for that matter) say will change your mind, Janus. Proof? I've been throwing it at you since I first came here. A few other people also throw some at you every now and then. You just say they're wrong and make an ill attempt (most of the time) to tell them why.
Well, his opponent was in a whole, unarmed, helpless, it seemed. Who wouldn't be overconfident? Yoda, perhaps Mace?
Umm, no.
Ah, but Vader and Luke are weak, remember. Despite what George Lucas says about Sidious being only 20% stronger than OT Vader, Vader's weaker than AOTC Anakin and still OT Sidious could beat ROTS Obi-Wan
Registered: May 2005
Location: .::The Anti-Fanboy Confederation::.
Why you throw the Dooku fight in here ? Dooku faked it. Period. If he didn't than you have to say that Anakin used his anger to beat Dooku. Now...what do you want to tell me ? That you pulled the Dooku fight out of your hat to show us exactly nothing (Dooku faking it) or you want to tell us that Anakin was fighting Obi-Wan in the same condition he had beaten Dooku (being angry) ?
WTF ? Anakin and Vader are the damn SAME PERSON. Same fighting skills, same force powers. Vader became weaker when he was put in his suit (because losing Midichlorians in the duel with Obi-Wan) but what does this matter in a fight between Mace Windu and ROTS Anakin ?
Obi-Wan won because he outsmarted Anakin. Now Mace Windu (even in TPM) had more experience than Obi-Wan, was a better lightsaber duellist than Obi-Wan, was the superior force user (note Jedi Master in the age of 28, Knight at the age of 13) and he would have outduelled Anakin AND outsmarted him.
Nice definition of "stronger" but again: HUH ?
Stronger compared to what ? To Vader in suit. Sure he is. Now what ?
Use some logic please. Janus was talking about experience. Do the people you mentioned have more experience than Anakin ? Yes. Are they better fighters ? We can't tell. Are they superior force users ? We can't tell.
Mace is naturally gifted with both: Force use and lightsaber fighting and he is simply the second best swordfighter the Jedi have in the PT era. So what ? He lost to Dooku CLOSE in a duel in TPM time now Anakin and Obi-Wan got their ass kicked badly by Dooku when fighting him together in ROTS before he lost the fight on purpose to Anakin. So what ? TPM Mace will most likely school Anakin badly.
No. It could NOT go either way. Obi-Wan will get pwned.
Let's just see.
Mace became a Jedi Knight at the age of 13 and invented his own style which is said to be the most deadly form of lightsaber combat (Shatterpoint). He became Jedi Master at the age of 28 (note: He must have trained a Padawan in order to archieve that status).
Now just notice the following fact: Windu was even legendary BEFORE the clone wars started. He confronted 14 bandits at once and they dropped their weapons instead of trying to fight him.
Even in TPM times he was already sitting on the Council for 12 years and was number 2 of the order. In AotC you basically the very same Mace Windu fighting on Geonosis (since he didn't do much from TPM to AotC) and he was deflecting 6 blaster bolts in less than a second, pwned a droid with a blaster bolt he deflected backwards just to pwn Jango Fett (who heself called the "deadliest man in the galaxy") badly. Not impressive ?
LOL ? Ever watched AotC or ROTS and see Yoda fighting ? He would kick Qui-Gon bad. Obi-Wan and Anakin would do the same. Mace Windu also.
What the hell ?
Qui-Gon used form IV which is very aggressive and therefore he simply lacks a good defence. Obi-Wan changed his style because he saw what flows the style had. The only person who realy fought well with that style is Yoda - and that because he doesn't need his lightsaber for defence (being able to dodge hits).
And Luke is using form V in ROTJ - so a different one. If you don't have an idea what you're talking about better keep your mouth shut.
Read all goddamn SW sources. Mace was ONLY ever challenged, beaten and compared to Dooku and Yoda. So...only Dooku and Yoda (who both could school all other people in the movies badly) can compare to Mace Windu. Now you think that Qui-Gon who lost to somebody like Maul (who would get wasted by Dooku and Yoda in less than a minute) would be a better lightsaber duellist than Mace ? OF COURSE IT WAS A HYPERBOLE.
If you don't want to realize that: In Shatterpoint it's said that Mace can attack people so fast that he seems to be invisible. Now what ? Will Mace pwn Anakin because Anakin would not be able to see him ? Great.
I have changed Janus mind on some occassions. He actually changes his mind when you can provide proof for your oppinion instead of writing down some terrible nonsens - and that's exactly what you're doing here at the moment.
Oh...let's see.
He didn't realize that there was a lightsaber left.
He didn't realize that the lightsaber was moving before Obi-Wan did jump over him.
And being the great lightsaber duellist you think he is - he wasn't able to parry Obi-Wan's strike despite the fact that he had his lightsaber still ignited. Notice that Vader needed less reaction time in ROTJ when Luke tried to kill Sidious.
Where did you get the idea from that OT Vader is weaker than AotC Anakin ? He's only weaker than Anakin in terms of force potential and physical speed. This is what Lucas is always talking about. Anakin lost some of his potential when Obi-Wan cut his legs and arm of. Your point here being ? If Sidious is only 20 % better than OT Vader and OT Vader would be weaker than AotC Anakin, every damn stupid Jedi in ROTS would be able to kick Sidious ass which isn't the case.
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To answer Janus's question. I guess next time I won't bother as it does no good. NTW, nice comeback, Janus. Telling me to shut the **** up. Real good.
I know Dooku fakes it. Why the **** are you bringing that up? My point was Vader used much more uncontrolled rage while fighting Obi-Wan than Anakin did while fighting Dooku. But my main point was Anakin's stronger than Obi-Wan, which means he's stronger than Vader. And since my point has been proved lets just drop this part of the debate.
Tell that to Obi-Wan, Vader and Luke.
So Vader's stronger than Obi-Wan?
More experience than someone who has fought in the Clone Wars? And TPM Mace is only 2 years older than ROTS Obi-Wan.
Huh what?
No, Anakin's stronger than Obi-Wan.
Yes, that's all ture but Dooku got alot stronger between TPM and ROTS as well.
You say that when you only have a vague idea of how strong TPM Mace is.
Wow, Thirteen? Are you serious?
Yes, he did train Depa but you don't have to train a Padawan to become a Master.
AOTC Mace could beat Anakin. And how do you know he did nothing between TPM and AOTC? Just because there's no books on what he did doesn't mean he did nothing. And did you say Mace called Jango the deadliest man in the galaxy? When? Snd anywahs, this is clearly wrong. Sidiious is clearly the deadliest. And Jango's jetpack broke, whoch is why he got pwned.
You don't know what you're talking about. If you read my previous post you'd know I meant everybody except Yoda, Mace, Sidious, Tyranus and Anakin/Obi-Wan (ROTS).
Okay, just because his form had flaws doesn't mean Qui-Gon was weak. Yoda used it and it worked well. yes, he can dodge hits, but so can any Jedi, some better than others.
You to. I didn't say they used the same form, just that wacking and lashing out worked for Luke when he defeated Vader.
According to who? You? And sw's sources say Qui-Gon rivaled Mace.
Okay, Yoda and Dooku were the only ones who could ever beat Mace, but I would say Yoda's quite a ways above TPM Mace. And AOTC-ROTS Dooku would beat Maul by quite a bit, TPM Dooku would be a better match for Maul.
How many times have I got to say AOTC and ROTS Mace would beat Anakin? And his punches are invisible to the naked eye, not to someone using the Force to make things seem slower.
Good job. You deserve a gold medal.
Yeah, what I'm saying is ubber nonsense
He was caught by surprise. Vader was expecting Luke to do what he did.
Oct 14th, 2005 12:54 AM
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