First of all good work in going against my plan (and for that matter Batdude was correct in giving you an extra point for that).
There are some parts that are not quite correct (well, 'correct' since after all I am the one who is talking about solar genesis on earth!!!!!) and let me address them before I go to your plan.
First of all you said that Magneto would freeze.
Actually in my post I said that he would have extended one of his strongest fields beneath him in a semicircle, where Jean and Bobby would stand facing each other.
Magneto is outside this bubble, and thus when Bobby drops the temperature within the encapsulation to a level where no molecule is moving (0K) Magz is not within it but outside.
Thus he is not flash frozen.
The second thing you said was that Magneto would 'burn out' due to the forces generated if my plan works.
Now that is a very strong point, and this is why I thought that the only survivor would most likely be Superman (option one had Magneto surviving, but it would be a stretch for him to do so. Although if he did the powers that he would be wielding would make him into a walking singularity, and once you consider that there are mutants that wield ridiculous powers .....like Franklin for example .....or are taken over by fantastical beings with powers that should make them explode ....like Jean as the Phoenix ......then there is some history to act as a foundation of a human, IN COMICS, surviving this. LOL. IF this was a legal case I could make it stick ...trust me. There is sufficient preponderance of evidence to make this stick).
Another point you made was that the speed at which Superman would be moving at would suck out all of the oxygen from his lungs.
This is another reason why Magneto MAY not survive this, and a very good reason at that.
However the VERY reason that would kill Magneto (Kal El moving at such high speeds that he creates a vacuum that not only extracts all the air out of Magneto but should also literally rip his body apart) is the same reason why my plan would work. When Superman is going at near-light speed, he'd only have to go around Magneto 2-4 times for it to work. He could even go far more times than that and he would still achieve the required effect. Now, Magneto will be dead, but the generation I am after will have occurred.
Thus even if Magneto goes my main plan (the Superman effect) still exists.
The other point you made was the lack of sufficient hydrogen for my plan to work.
You are indeed correct .....to a point (as I shall explain).
Even though the Earth has a whole lot of hydrogen, most of it is untappable and even then it is locked away.
However my plan does not entail unlocking these reserves. It doesn't need to.
That is the reason why it had to get as hot as I intended it to ......at the temperatures listed funny things start to happen to the weak force, the strong force, the electromagnetic force, and gravity.
In the example I listed, at CERN in Geneva they managed to create temperatures that were present only a few fractions of a second after the creation of the universe, and when they did that they noticed the creation of 'W' and 'Z' particles that had the same precise principles as stated by Unified theory (as an aside if my plan works the above is what would make Magneto into a major threat ....anyways moving on).
Thus at this temperatures the strong force is behaving differently, and is much weaker. The only things they can hold together are a proton and a neutron.
No more complex atomic and molecule structures ....all that can be held together is a proton and a neutron in the nucleus, and that is equal to one thing: Hydrogen.
An entire planet of it.
This brings me to the 900 pound gorilla in your counter-argument. Namely that even if all of the above works, there is not sufficient mass to ensure a yellow sun.
Now, that was a good one ....and apparently well researched since you included some Spectroscopy of stars. For instance you listed that at Earth mass, the only type of star that could be produced would be one that was red- (red-orange). Basically an 'M' star, and being a red star it would be as good to Superman as salt is to a slug.
Knockout blow?
Well, not really.
For one consider several things.
Such stars have various properties .....for one they are almost out of hydrogen (actually they are out of hydrogen), and they also have relatively 'cool' temperatures ('only' at 3000-6000 F).
My 'star' on the other hand will have 100% H, and its temperature will be several thousand trillion degrees.
Major difference.
However I still have that monkey on my back ......how to deal with the lack of Mass.
No matter what I have, the lack of mass (even if all the above happens) will just mean that all I have is an immense globe of hydrogen that will explode like some huge bomb but have no other effect. While that might be enough to get rid of any team, it is not what I want.
What to do about the mass?
Well, simple (in comic books though ludicrous in real life).
Compress the stuff!
Have a look at the following gif (the GIF is in the bottom half of the page):
That is a picture of the miniature city of Kandor, which Superman keeps in a bottle in the Fortress of Solitude after it was shrunk by some villain.
Look above it ......that is a miniature red sun.
Look at its size.
Thus in comicdom some miniaturization is possible, and in my case it doesn't need to get anywhere near that small. Let's say the size of North America.
Although all that is moot, because at the temperatures that will be created once the whole process begins (not the 'sun' creation, but once Superman goes around Magneto several times) the opposing team (and all but one of my team) either dies or has to leave the planet.
According to the KMC rules, leaving a planet is an automatic loss. So they either stay and perish, or leave and lose.
Those were well-thought out and lucid points that you made if I do say so myself. Keep up the good work. I have but one question however. Even with all that energy flowing around as well as the extreme temperatures, the Green Lanterns have been known to keep a bubble up even through the mighty power of a supernova which generates much more energy than what you are offering. So Hal being arguably the most willed, should be able to do this. Now, about the hydrogen, even though you explained the mass thing, stars are never just made out of PURE hydrogen. It's a combination of hydrogen and helium. With a ball of pure hydrogen and with all the extreme temperatures, why exactly WOULDN'T it go "KABLOOM?" It would acctually blow up the entire planet about a million times over... BTW, you get another point for creativity.
__________________ Poppa's comin home to sling some dick.
Question though ....both teams are starting out not knowing that the other team is going to do, right?
Then how will your team know to tell Magma to try and stop the earth's spin?
Secondly you gave me a hard prospect .....how do you deal with a team that has stopped time?
After all the fight starts, and by the time my team is almost at the pole time has stopped.
Giving your team indefinite time to think of all sorts of nasty stuff.
That was a conundrum, until I realized there was no reason to even worry about your time freeze.
The thing is your team will eventually have to come out of its time bubble, and when it does it will come out at a point of time just as my team is starting its polar activity.
By the time your team gets there, with its kryptonite enhanced red-ray fortified Uru hammer attack as well as its stop-the-core tactic, my team's stratagem will already be under way.
Your team will have enough time to think of a good plan, but not sufficient time to institute it.
Moreover how would they even know what my team is up to?
Anyways, you will have a lot of time to think of many plans, but the moment you step out of your time freeze you die.
You also stated that Magma would step out of the time bubble while the rest of your team is still inside it going through strategy (you said: "Magma will then exit the time bubble, enter the planet, and stop the earth's core from spinning (thereby eliminating the earth's magnetic field and a potential power source for Magneto). While still in the time bubble my team continues their preparations.")
Actually the moment Magma steps out of the bubble she is time-frozen, just like my team. She is not going to be heading to the center of the earth to do anything.
The moment the rest of your team gets out of the time bubble, they will find:
- Magma just about to start her entry into the earth ...the same place she was when she got out of their time bubble.
- Funny activity in the earth's magnetosphere as Superman starts his LS spin around Magneto (and your team will have to get to the pole)
Your team will have a good plan, but that is all they will have. By the time they get anywhere near my team it is too late. Once Kal El starts the spin it is over.
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Last edited by spetznaz on Apr 11th, 2006 at 10:52 PM
DAMN STRAIGHT! No, but I made this thread specifically for these two to duke it out with these characters so I could put their creativity skills and their debating skills to the test, even though they have proven themselves to be top tier on this forum. So that means I get to decide who gets the points for the thread.
__________________ Poppa's comin home to sling some dick.
Yea, that could very easily be argued based on other examples. My point was only that nothing in his power set would explain him transcending his physical body (as opposed to Franklin who can manipulate reality and Jean who is connected to the fundamental creative force of the MU). I.e. if you turn the earth into a star he would still die from a lack of oxygen no matter how powerful he became.
Fair enough.
Very interesting. Well my first question would be who on your team is a nuclear physicist? Such a think might be possible but how would your team know how to do it?
Also what would protect Superman from having his body affected by either the temperature (ie turn into hydrogen) or dieing from the massive explosion that would result from your plan, as we are talking about an explosion far greater than a nuclear bomb. From what I know of his bio-aura, the reason he is able to approach the sun is that as he gets closer his body absorbs more yellow sunlight. This increases the strength of his aura which in turn enables him to get even close in a loop-type effect. However, the aura can be overloaded with either high level energy or kinetic attacks and what you are proposing could safely be called both. His aura wouldn't have the time it needs to strengthen itself to the necessary level.
Good point. So perhaps the composition and temperature of the Earth/star would wield greater influence over the type of star as opposed to mass? That is certainly possible (in the confines of this debate it may not be possible to know for sure either way).
If we assume that your plan would work, two problems still remain. One is that the Earth/star would still not have enough gravitational pull to hold itself together. The thermonuclear reaction would reach a point where the force it produces would exceed the ability of the planet to hold it's mass in. The second is that you are not starting your reaction at the core of the planet. So gravity (or any other force for that matter) would not be forcing hydrogen gas into your makeshift reactor to fuel it as it does in a star. The initial explosion would actually force hydrogen away from you instead of to you.
You forgot to explain in there exactly how you are going to compress the mass of the Earth/star . It might be possible but I don't think your team is up to matter manipulation (either being physically able to or knowing how) when all except Superman are going to die very shorty in your plan.
And the rules say that I can't leave the "field of combat". Going into space above the planet isn't leaving the field of combat as your team could easily follow and continue the fight thereby making it a field where we are engaged in combat (it's not like my team would be trying to excape). Besides Hal would be able to easily protect my team if they decide to stay on the planet.
__________________
Carl - "No, the real point is: I don't give a damn."
Carl - "This line, here? Line of Death. You cross it, and your freedoms no longer exist. Um-kay? Have a good day."
Last edited by TheKahn on Apr 11th, 2006 at 11:10 PM
Very good point. I actually had to think about this little problem for a while. However, I realized that there is no reason why my team wouldn't simply travel to the North Pole before Hal starts time again (Thor could easily teleport them there or they could travel in Hal's time bubble). This would allow them to not only avoid giving you team time to implement your plan but also give them the element of surprise.
Good point with Magma being time frozen when she leaves the bubble. I guess I'll just have to have Thor teleport her to the core of the earth before my team leaves the bubble in the North Pole to attack your team. That way she will be right where she needs to be only seconds after the fight starts.
__________________
Carl - "No, the real point is: I don't give a damn."
Carl - "This line, here? Line of Death. You cross it, and your freedoms no longer exist. Um-kay? Have a good day."
First of all who in my team is a nuclear physicist?
Well ....let me say that in Pre-Crisis times Superman was a unltra-genius. He could whip up thingimajigs that would make Reed Richards cry foul!
In modern times Superman is not written as having that same type of insane intellect (although in All Star Superman he has even gone beyond his former intellect into new levels), but Kal El is still extremely intelligent. It is just not shown as often or to the same scale as it used to be shown when he was shiving moons about.
However he is still very intelligent.
Think of his fortress of Solitude.
Think of his Superman robots ....which he himself built to such high levels that they are extremely powerful and capable (one such Superman robot took out the Titans and Young Justice, and in the process killed Donna Troi and some other person, and messed up the other members of the two teams ....including 2 flashes, Superboy, 2 Wonder'girls' ...if I include Donna here ....., tempest, and NW and Robin ....and did this with ease). Thus it shows Superman is intelligent enough when it comes to matters of science and engineering.
Moreover think of his current fortress of solitudes (plural) ....like the one he built in the jungle. The darn thing is science-central, and not just earth science but other stuff (like the levitating rocks):
(please log in to view the image)
Superman is not written as he used to be when it comes to his intellect, but he is still insanely intelligent (it is just that after his pre-crisis showings they started to pale most of his powers, and the one that took the greatest hit in my opinion are showings of his intellect). Nonetheless Superman is very intelligent.
And if I could think of such a scenario then a comicbook character like Superman, who tinkers at the level that he does, would certainly think of something similar.
BTW .....I still don't understand how your team would know what I was up to to the extent that they are 'porting Magma to the center of the earth. Your team would actually have to be either omniscient or precogniscent to even know to try and beat mine to the North pole, or at the very least know exactly what I am going to be doing.
Also how exactly would Magma stop the earth?
More importantly how could she stop the core movement before Superman had gone around Magneto at least several times at light speed?
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Last edited by spetznaz on Apr 12th, 2006 at 12:44 AM
Finally it is my team that has a perfect Nash equilibrum. This is because my stratagem doesn't depend on what the other team is doing. There is no incentive for me to alter my plan.
However your plan is basically a focused tactic to negate mine, which means it is dependent on factors that are reactory in nature.
In game theory your plan is an inferior plan (not inferior due to you ....that is what it is actually called. LOL. I am not calling your plan inferior ....hey, I try to avoid misunderstandings).
Moreover your plan is dependent on your characters knowing exactly what mine will do.
Now, you have a pretty powerful telepath (cable) ....actually green lanterns do have SOME telepathy.
But my team will be going too fast for that, and mroeover i have a telepath to play cover if needed (though i doubt that will be necessary).
Anyways, in game theory my plan is sufficient in and of itself. Your plan is a direct countermeasure to mine.
I have the optimal NE here.
Damnit! I accidentally forgot to separate one of my responses from your quote I was addressing.
Here it is:
"Well Bishop, Cable, and Magma are all from the Marvel Universe, so when Hal detects Superman moving at super speed towards the North Pole in the company of Magneto before he stops time, it wouldn't take much to put two and two together. Especially when Magneto has messed with the planet's magnetic field before."
As to your other question remember that Superman would have to actually reveal his plan to your team. This will take some time and a good bit of convincing as nearly all of them will die in the attempt . Magma's power is to control rock and lava. What I'm am suggesting she do is stop the core of the earth from spinning. She could increase the pressure/friction on the core from the surrounding rocks. Now I know this is a lot for her to do but she would have gone over this action numerous times before (thanks to Cable) and would be operating at her max potential.
__________________
Carl - "No, the real point is: I don't give a damn."
Carl - "This line, here? Line of Death. You cross it, and your freedoms no longer exist. Um-kay? Have a good day."
KMC Community Forums
Apr 11th, 2006 10:10 PM
Keep up the good work. I have but one question however. Even with all that energy flowing around as well as the extreme temperatures, the Green Lanterns have been known to keep a bubble up even through the mighty power of a supernova which generates much more energy than what you are offering. So Hal being arguably the most willed, should be able to do this. Now, about the hydrogen, even though you explained the mass thing, stars are never just made out of PURE hydrogen. It's a combination of hydrogen and helium. With a ball of pure hydrogen and with all the extreme temperatures, why exactly WOULDN'T it go "KABLOOM?" It would acctually blow up the entire planet about a million times over... BTW, you get another point for creativity. 
No, but I made this thread specifically for these two to duke it out with these characters so I could put their creativity skills and their debating skills to the test, even though they have proven themselves to be top tier on this forum. So that means I get to decide who gets the points for the thread. 
(it's not like my team would be trying to excape). Besides Hal would be able to easily protect my team if they decide to stay on the planet.
