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Pre-retcon Amalgam Brothers discussion
Started by: Thanos_THOTU

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Galan007
|Quantum Observer|

Gender: Male
Location: Mars, 1985

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mr Master
I find this notion contradictory to On Panel scenerios depicted like this one:

The meaning of what I said was simply that,

The Red Brother represented Marvel.

The Blue Brother represented DC.

Whether or not they represented the "sum total" of their companies, wasn't even commented upon. smile

Though this scan kind of speaks for itself, where that part of the debate is concerned:
(please log in to view the image)

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Last edited by Galan007 on Apr 4th, 2007 at 05:48 PM

Apr 4th, 2007 05:37 PM

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Endless Mike
Sqirrel Girl fanboy

Gender: Unspecified
Location: United States

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007
If TOAA in Marvel fought the Presence in DC, what would happen?

Because we know that these characters are both omnipotent.

Yet I have a hard time believing that one of them could beat the other.

That's just it, it would be impossible for them to fight, because if one existed, then, by definition, the other one could not exist. So asking who would win a fight between two omnipotent beings is like asking what would happen if you had a square circle. It's logically impossible.

quote:
Again,

This doesn't always hold true in the comic world.

It holds true according to the definition of omnipotence "All - powerful, able to do anything".

If there's something you can't do, then, by definition, you're not omnipotent. Unless you're redefining omnipotent to mean something else.

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Apr 4th, 2007 06:02 PM

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Galan007
|Quantum Observer|

Gender: Male
Location: Mars, 1985

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Endless Mike
That's just it, it would be impossible for them to fight, because if one existed, then, by definition, the other one could not exist. So asking who would win a fight between two omnipotent beings is like asking what would happen if you had a square circle. It's logically impossible.

So it's impossible for these beings to exist together just because they're omnipotent?

That makes no sense.... confused

But answer the question, if those 2 omnipotent beings were able to battle each other, who would come out on top?

Or would they stalemate? smile

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Endless Mike
It holds true according to the definition of omnipotence "All - powerful, able to do anything".

If there's something you can't do, then, by definition, you're not omnipotent. Unless you're redefining omnipotent to mean something else.

If we are going by "real world" definitions, you are correct.

But the real world and the comic world differ in many ways.

Beings who have held omnipotence in comics, have not always been omniscient.

That much is a fact.

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Apr 4th, 2007 06:08 PM

Endless Mike
Sqirrel Girl fanboy

Gender: Unspecified
Location: United States

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007
So it's impossible for these beings to exist together just because they're omnipotent?

That makes no sense....

But answer the question, if those 2 omnipotent beings were able to battle each other, who would come out on top?

It's impossible to answer, because it's impossible to have more than one omnipotent being.

quote:
If we are going by "real world" definitions, you are correct.

But the real world and the comic world differ in many ways.

Beings who have held omnipotence in comics, have not always been omniscient.

That much is a fact.

So that means they're not truly omnipotent.

Let me ask you this, if someone suggested a fight between a being that was supposedly "omnipotent" but not omniscient, and a being that was supposedly omnipotent and omniscient, who do you think would win?

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Apr 4th, 2007 06:17 PM

Galan007
|Quantum Observer|

Gender: Male
Location: Mars, 1985

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Endless Mike
It's impossible to answer, because it's impossible to have more than one omnipotent being.

Still makes no sense, but whatever.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Endless Mike
So that means they're not truly omnipotent.

Let me ask you this, if someone suggested a fight between a being that was supposedly "omnipotent" but not omniscient, and a being that was supposedly omnipotent and omniscient, who do you think would win?

That's an obvious answer, but not really what I was getting at.

Who would win between pre-retcon Beyonder v.s. a being who was his exact equal in EVERY way?

Beyonder was a prime example of a character who was omnipotent, but not omniscient.

So if those 2 battled, what would happen?

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Apr 4th, 2007 06:25 PM

Endless Mike
Sqirrel Girl fanboy

Gender: Unspecified
Location: United States

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007
Still makes no sense, but whatever.

It makes perfect sense.... if you introduce limitations to an omnipotent being, then that being is not omnipotent, and never was.

quote:
That's an obvious answer, but not really what I was getting at.

Well it is what I was getting at. If the obvious answer is that the omnipotent + omniscient being would win, then the first "omnipotent" being would have been defeated and overcome. For an omnipotent being, that's impossible, by the very definition of omnipotence. So therefore, your idea of omnipotence isn't really omnipotence at all.

quote:
Who would win between pre-retcon Beyonder v.s. a being who was his exact equal in EVERY way?

Beyonder was a prime example of a character who was omnipotent, but not omniscient.

So if those 2 battled, what would happen?

PR Beyonder was not omnipotent, he had limitations, he was often surprised by things, he was challenged by Molecule Man....

The fact that he was not omniscient proves that he was not omnipotent. You can have omniscience but lack omnipotence, but not the other way around.

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Apr 4th, 2007 06:29 PM

Galan007
|Quantum Observer|

Gender: Male
Location: Mars, 1985

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Endless Mike
It makes perfect sense.... if you introduce limitations to an omnipotent being, then that being is not omnipotent, and never was.

Who had limitations? confused

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Well it is what I was getting at. If the obvious answer is that the omnipotent + omniscient being would win, then the first "omnipotent" being would have been defeated and overcome. For an omnipotent being, that's impossible, by the very definition of omnipotence. So therefore, your idea of omnipotence isn't really omnipotence at all.

Of course this is correct, in the real world.

But again, in comics you CAN have omnipotence but not omniscience.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Endless Mike
PR Beyonder was not omnipotent, he had limitations, he was often surprised by things, he was challenged by Molecule Man....

If you're omnipotent, yet not omniscient you would be surprised by things.

And MM only "challenged" Beyonder, until Beyonder actually tried.

This doesn't disprove omnipotence.

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Apr 4th, 2007 06:34 PM

Mr Master
Junior Member

Gender: Male
Location: somewhere within time & space

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007
The meaning of what I said was simply that,

The Red Brother represented Marvel.

The Blue Brother represented DC.

Cool.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007
Whether or not they represented the "sum total" of their companies, wasn't even commented upon.

Earlier on you said they were the Supreme Beings IYO.

That's why I said that,

if you feel differently now, that's good. smile

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007
Though this scan kind of speaks for itself, where that part of the debate is concerned:

The debate concerns the Amalgam Brothers, so everything about them is of concern.

So yea, that Scan says that, but other scans from the same Arc contradict that. smile

It's not your fault really, the Creators of this nonsense are to blame. mad

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Apr 4th, 2007 06:34 PM

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Endless Mike
Sqirrel Girl fanboy

Gender: Unspecified
Location: United States

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007
Who had limitations?

TOAA and the Presence have no limitations. But if you introduce one to another in a crossover scenario, then they are given limitations by not being able to instantly defeat each other.

quote:
Of course this is correct, in the real world.

But again, in comics you CAN have omnipotence but not omniscience.

So then your definition of "omnipotence in comics" isn't real omnipotence at all, and is just meaningless.

quote:
If you're omnipotent, yet not omniscient you would be surprised by things.

And MM only "challenged" Beyonder, until Beyonder actually tried.

This doesn't disprove omnipotence.

Yes it does, because if he was omnipotent, he could have just wanted to know something, and he would instantly know it.

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Apr 4th, 2007 06:37 PM

Astner
The Ghost Who Walks

Gender: Male
Location:

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Endless Mike
That's just it, it would be impossible for them to fight, because if one existed, then, by definition, the other one could not exist. So asking who would win a fight between two omnipotent beings is like asking what would happen if you had a square circle. It's logically impossible.

It holds true according to the definition of omnipotence "All - powerful, able to do anything".

If there's something you can't do, then, by definition, you're not omnipotent. Unless you're redefining omnipotent to mean something else.

It was even stated that they couldent exist to their lack of uniqeness.
That's why they fought.

Apr 4th, 2007 06:39 PM

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Endless Mike
Sqirrel Girl fanboy

Gender: Unspecified
Location: United States

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
It was even stated that they couldent exist to their lack of uniqeness.
That's why they fought.

Yet they did exist, so therefore they weren't omnipotent.

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Apr 4th, 2007 06:43 PM

Astner
The Ghost Who Walks

Gender: Male
Location:

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Endless Mike
TOAA and the Presence have no limitations. But if you introduce one to another in a crossover scenario, then they are given limitations by not being able to instantly defeat each other.

So then your definition of "omnipotence in comics" isn't real omnipotence at all, and is just meaningless.

Yes it does, because if he was omnipotent, he could have just wanted to know something, and he would instantly know it.

In comics you can surpass infinity, give characters different levels of omnipotence and so forth.
As Einstein said. With logic you could go from A to B, but with fantasy you could go everywhere.
The comics isnt logialy based, they can invent levels beyond omnipotence, it's not hard at all.

Apr 4th, 2007 06:43 PM

Astner
The Ghost Who Walks

Gender: Male
Location:

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Yet they did exist, so therefore they weren't omnipotent.

But then again, fantasy >> logic, since logic has limitation on its own.

Apr 4th, 2007 06:45 PM

Galan007
|Quantum Observer|

Gender: Male
Location: Mars, 1985

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Endless Mike
TOAA and the Presence have no limitations. But if you introduce one to another in a crossover scenario, then they are given limitations by not being able to instantly defeat each other.

Why?

They are both Omnipotent, they would stalemate eternally.

One infinity can not be greater then another, but there can be more then one infinity.

A characters power-set doesn't change this.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Endless Mike
So then your definition of "omnipotence in comics" isn't real omnipotence at all, and is just meaningless.

It depends.

The only truly omnipotent/omniscient character(s) in comics are TOAA/Presence.

But just as there are more then one level of infinity (in comics), there are also more then one level of omnipotence (in comics).

Beyonder, and Thanos /w/ THOTI were both omnipotent, but not omniscient.

TOAA/Presence would have still been more powerful then them.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Yes it does, because if he was omnipotent, he could have just wanted to know something, and he would instantly know it.

real world? Yes.

Comic world? Not necessarily.

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Apr 4th, 2007 06:45 PM

Astner
The Ghost Who Walks

Gender: Male
Location:

In logical sense, one omnipotent would be one too much, in other words. Omnipotence is impossible.

Apr 4th, 2007 06:48 PM

Mr Master
Junior Member

Gender: Male
Location: somewhere within time & space

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007
Beyonder, and Thanos /w/ THOTI were both omnipotent, but not omniscient.

Actually Thanos had Omniversal Omniscience, but was still below TOAA.

Beyonder was omniscient, but not in the absolute sense.

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Apr 4th, 2007 06:50 PM

Endless Mike
Sqirrel Girl fanboy

Gender: Unspecified
Location: United States

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
But then again, fantasy >> logic, since logic has limitation on its own.

So you admit your position is illogical.

I win by default then.

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Apr 4th, 2007 06:50 PM

Endless Mike
Sqirrel Girl fanboy

Gender: Unspecified
Location: United States

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007
Why?

They are both Omnipotent, they would stalemate eternally.

One infinity can not be greater then another, but there can be more then one infinity.

A characters power-set doesn't change this.

Omnipotence isn't the same as infinite power. Omnipotence means the ability to do anything, with no limitations whatsoever. If two beings cannot defeat each other, then, by definition, neither of them are omnipotent.

quote:
It depends.

The only truly omnipotent/omniscient character(s) in comics are TOAA/Presence.

But just as there are more then one level of infinity (in comics), there are also more then one level of omnipotence (in comics).

Beyonder, and Thanos /w/ THOTI were both omnipotent, but not omniscient.

TOAA/Presence would have still been more powerful then them.

What you mean is that Beyonder and HOTU are extremely potent, but not omnipotent.

quote:
real world? Yes.

Comic world? Not necessarily.

Special pleading.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_pleading

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Apr 4th, 2007 06:53 PM

Astner
The Ghost Who Walks

Gender: Male
Location:

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Endless Mike
So you admit your position is illogical.

I win by default then.

No, the point is, Spider-man's power is illogical, to lift 10 tons you would need the musles of 10-20 elephants, so Spider-man is illogical, so is Superman and so forth.
But we don't say that Superman loses by default while fighting Punisher.

Apr 4th, 2007 06:55 PM

Galan007
|Quantum Observer|

Gender: Male
Location: Mars, 1985

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Omnipotence isn't the same as infinite power. Omnipotence means the ability to do anything, with no limitations whatsoever. If two beings cannot defeat each other, then, by definition, neither of them are omnipotent.

What you mean is that Beyonder and HOTU are extremely potent, but not omnipotent.

This goes back to the age old question, which really proves that nothing can be truly omnipotent.

If TOAA was trying, could he create a boulder so large, that he could not lift it?

If yes, then TOAA didn't do what he meant to do.... Proving he was not omnipotent.

If no, then TOAA didn't do what he meant to do.... Proving he was not omnipotent.

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Apr 4th, 2007 06:58 PM

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