I just hit you with a keyboard, now I have no keyboard.
Yes he choked him across lightyears. But wasn't that when he was seeing Xizor through a hologram? Traversing your will through space and time is impressive, but until Vader picks up a freaking Star Destroyer... 'kay, a Star Destroyer... not a wind pipe.
__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
I don't think you truly understand how impressive a feat like that is. Of course it would be easier for Nihilus to lift something heavier that is in front of him, than it would be for Vader to grip something lightyears away.
__________________ "The power of the dark side is an illness no true Sith would wish to be cured of" -Darth Plagueis
actually sidious. you seem to be misunderstanding mister joker here.
yes, vader choked someone lightyears away. but he did through HOLOGRAMS and TRANSMISSIONS. vader never just willingly choked any person without seeing them. in case you can't read lucien said:
so when did he never understand the power of such a feat?....
what the point is here: is choking a freaking human who only weighs pounds is no where near the scale of lifting a ship which is hundreds of thousand or even millions of tons.....mind you while this ship was likely captured in malachor 5's messed up gravitational pull. how can you think a choke is even near as impressive?
No i understand what he is saying. A hologram is just a visual of a person, not the real thing. He is not crushing the visual, he his crushing the actual person who is lightyears away. The visual only gives Vader an idea of where the person is. It still does not change the fact that his power reached across great distances.
Except i am not comparing a mere force choke, but the distance in which Vader was able to do so.
Again, no i am not comparing the force choke alone, but the distance in which it happened, and the time it took. Vader's will actually traveled at greater speed than light.
Now if i compare Vader's force choke of admiral Motti, then i would be ridiculous.
And Sids, really... just think of the math: Vader choking a lifeform's throat weighing at several pounds of muscles and sinue. He used a live visual of the being to focus on him. That's spatial-awareness. Impressive, certainly. But what would be "Jesus Christ, REALLY?" impressive, is if he just imagined Xizor and choked him. No visuals at all. Then again, other beings have used the Force to speak to beings across the agalxy without seeing them, ala Palpatine-Mara Jade. VAder is simply performing his usual move over a greater distance, but is still reliant on visuals.
And then you have Nihilus: Lifts millions of tons of metal out of the depths of a ruined planet. That's strength. In a Force fight----Force choking over a long distance through use of a hologram, or dropping a starship on your head.......... I wonder what's more effective.
__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
who said it did change anything? yes vader has great spatial control over his tk. it doesn't change the fact he did it only when he "knew" where they were due the holograms/transmissions...
for the last time we know. no one has doubted that it was indeed a great feat. but it still can't compare to nihilus.
my pleasure.
Last edited by sigma-ct42 on Nov 20th, 2008 at 07:30 PM
It still does not change the fact that his power reached across great distances. He did not choke the visual, he still choked the person lightyears away. The visual allowed Vader to know the location of Xizor, so that Vader can reach out and feel him, and use the force around him.
Except there is an entire galaxy filled with life forms. It would take hours and hours of meditation for Vader to find Xizor. The visual allowed Vader to know of his location. It had nothing to do with focusing his power. It ain't a voodoo doll.
Using telepathy across great distances is not like using TK against someone across great distances.
Besides Palpatine was a bad example. He was one of the most powerful force users in history, and Mara also had a force link to him.
Oh yeah, Vader is going to stand there, and watch Nihilus lift a mile-long ship in the air, and then drop it on him. Are they fighting a mile apart from each other? If so, it would be easy for Vader to feel Nihilus through the force, and then force choke him. Now that would be a better arguement.
Vader only needs to know the exact location of the person to use TK against them. I know this because Jorus C'baoth used force grip against someone, who was in a different ship, without a live visual.
You don't make sense. It would take time for Nihilus to lift a mile-long ship and throw it. Do you think Vader would be standing there in such awe that he would be motion-less?
Except there is. We see him choking people in the same room, in other rooms, and also lightyears away. We also see Jorus grip someone on another ship, and he is not as strong as Vader
Don't compare that arguement to mine, because lifting a ship, and throwing it at great speed, is a lot harder than just lifting it alone. But, force gripping someone who is lightyears away, would be harder than to do so to someone within a mile radius. So it makes sense that if Vader is able to reach out lightyears away with the force, he can reach out a mile away.
This has to be a bad joke. I will (try) to explain it to you. N. has enough strength with TK to move a ship. He can apply X amount of force, where X=ship moving. He can apply X in any way he wants. His power is not confined to ship moving- he could crush Vader's armor, throw things at him, or throw Vader. N.'s TK is strong enough to move a ship. This does not mean that N's TK can only move a ship.
You have not shown that the difficulty in Force usage increases with distance. An all pervasive mystical field laughs in the face of space/time.
Why would it be more difficult? All you have said here is that Force gripping someone from far away is tough. Proof?
b) tore down a bridge, and use its pieces as missiles.
c) caught a massive pillar in mid-air, and redirected it.
d) destroyed Palpatine's lab, even though he was not as masterful with the force then.
e) force gripped Xizor, who was lightyears away. That alone shows great skill and proficiency, than anything else Vader has demonstrated as far as TK. Maybe not a whole lot of raw power, but extraordinary skill.
Nihilus:
a) lifted a ship.
b) choked Visas.
All of the things Vader did with ease, more than make up for a one time thing Nihilus did with a ship.
I thought it was common sense, seeing how Sidious took time to write about how great of a skill it was.
Also if it was easy, why was Jorus applauded for doing so.
Says who? Yoda, who also says size meant nothing?
Read above.
Do you actually think reaching out across the vast distance of space instantly is an easy technique, and that any force user can do it? If so the burden of proof would be on you.
Nihilus has shown us a greater example of raw power with TK than Vader, but Vader has shown more skill, and his skill greatly makes up for the difference. Vader has not only showed great skill, but also a lot of raw power. Put the two together, and he surpasses Nihilus with TK.
Tore down one hut, no indication to my knowledge of it being done "casually."
A bridge made of wood.
Right before getting owned by a man who barely managed to redirect a falling Star Destroyer; a far cry from pulling a similarly-sized object against gravity.
He destroyed medical droids and dented the walls of a lab with an uncontrolled scream.
Arca Jeth and Mace Windu destroyed battle droids in the midst of combat, the latter doing so while weaving between blaster bolts and sliding on his back.
A dying Mara Jade could stroke her husband's hair from across the galaxy. A dead Freedon Nadd could attack a Jedi Master from across the galaxy.
Neither had a visual aid.
The ship weighing tens or hundreds of thousands of tons, and being pulled out of a gravity well (against the pull of gravity, or for all intents and purposes, "up") and into space. Consider that the man who thoroughly bested Vader in a contest of the Force barely managed to redirect a slightly larger ship when it was falling to the ground, and then failed to stop it even with the assistance of what one can only presume would be absurd amounts of drag and friction.
No they don't; they don't even come close, because none of those feats compare. By your logic, the guy who benches 200, 300, 400, and 500 pounds on separate occasions is more impressive than the guy who benches 10,000. And I suppose Obi-Wan is a better swordsman than Yoda, because he bested Asajj Ventress, General Grievous, Darth Vader, and A'Sharad Hett and all Yoda did was beat Dooku.
Quantity < Quality.
No one said it was easy, genius. You're just blowing it out of proportion.
A dying Mara Jade could stroke Luke's hair from across the galaxy with the Force. A dead Freedon Nadd could attack someone (Vodo) from across the galaxy with the Force. Neither used or required a visual aid.
WTF?
Dying and dead people can do it without a visual aid.
Being more skilled in the Force doesn't automatically make someone better than an individual of superior power. That skill needs to actually make up the difference in raw power. Vader, mastery acknowledged, has never displayed ability on par with that of Nihilus. The singular feat of tearing a starship made of thousands of tons of metal out of a gravity well (that would be moving against any resistance) while keeping it intact completely eclipses Vader's greatest showings.
Context, and Kyp wasn't butchering logic.
If you want to argue that Vader is more versatile, go right ahead. There would be no proof outside of cut-content to suggest that Nihilus is the most varied Force-user out there. But in a contest of overall power based on demonstrated feats, Vader loses out miserably.
Ok? And when did Nihilus ever crush massive huts that were as strong as durasteel.
And are you insinuating that because Nihilus lifted a ship one time, automatically makes him superior to Vader in TK.
a lot of feats with raw power + A great showing of skill > A one time showing of great raw power.
Doubt it happened in an instance. Even if it did, it doesn't prove that he can just pick up ships and force throw them at great speed. Besides he would have to be pretty far from Vader to crush Vader with a ship, without crushing himself. If he is a mile away from Vader, by the time Nihilus lifted the ship in the air, Vader can already reach out with the force and crush him
I would take his word for it before i took yours, seeing that he is a force user, and you are not.
Kyp was not stating an opinion, he was stating a fact about himself.
I can crush a cardboard box. I guess that means the guy who can yank a few tons of cardboard straight up into the air but has never actually crushed a cardboard box can't crush said box. It's a different application of the same type of force, except that one individual is capable of exerting far more of that force than the other.
Yep. The best feats win out; that's how things have always been.
No. Not when "a lot of feats of raw power" are performed on a scale that isn't remotely comparable to the singular showing.
You're quickly convincing me that you're completely hopeless.
Nihilus does not need to throw a starship at Vader to hurt him. His telekinetic prowess is such that he is capable of such a feat; it does not mean that that's all he can do with it. In fact, we already know it's not all he can do because we see him choking Visas and throwing Kreia into a pillar.
And in order to hurt someone with the Force you would have to bypass whatever defenses they have erected. That can't be done against someone who's better than you.
Oh ok so you want to use that type of arguement. By your logic the guy who lifts 300 pounds would be more impressive than the guy who can crush a 100 pound dumbbell to pieces.
__________________ "The power of the dark side is an illness no true Sith would wish to be cured of" -Darth Plagueis
Buddy, I liked you at first, but your persisting against all logic. Keep at it much longer and you'll be awarded the Nebaris Medal of "Honour."
P.S. The quotations are on the medal.
__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
Nov 20th, 2008 08:51 AM
