I dont recall a cutscene where Bayonetta uses witch time for a long duration in combat. It does not make sense to me that it lasts long otherwise she would use it in far more battles/cutscenes, especially when shes fighting hard. She would use it constantly and in every situation if it was easy to have on.
Also I think manhandling Fortitudo (also a vid where she uses time powers for about a minute) is a better strength feat:
It seems conssitent both in cutscenes and gameplay that the witch time works a lot longer against inanimate objects and when bayonetta is not actually fighting. Probably because of concentration.
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Last edited by Burning thought on May 18th, 2011 at 11:21 PM
The motion is Temp being knocked backwards, if it was the levitation was the only thing defeated then he would fall straight down. 3rd law accounts for that motion. Now imagine said 'porter [to you] is moving at most 10cm/s, 'cause with her reactions thats what Kain would be like. Dunno about you but I'd find it easy to perceive my surroundings before getting hit. Thats mostly true but if she can dodge a bullet at 30cm she can react to and dodge Kain at any distance.
Wraith is a strong weapon capable of physical damage BUT its unknown just how powerful it is. For fairness I'll say its a good deal above her swords which are above normal themselves, but the difference between them is (unless theres proof to how high its damage is) below the difference between Bay's strength and Raziels.
The cutscene where shes talking to some giant bird..thing, Fortitudo? The scenery is moving at 1/1,000th normal speed and yes, it is relevant as in those seconds to Kain she will be moving up to Mach 146 o-o...... Not that it lasts a few seconds as the cutscene shows it lasting much more. Wont work 'cause of this ''All non-aggressive characters can be charmed with this power.'' and this ''Allows Kain to control weak-minded humans.'' Bayonetta is neither weak-minded nor non-aggressive.
The one Raziel put on Kain, do more is from Wraith being above her blades but her strength being even higher then that to Raziel's. I'll find the cutscene later, even though it'd be easier for someone like you who has played the game to find it >.< but meh, only limitation is other beings that can use or enter Witch Time. Range unknown, cant be said its more than 1km as much as it cant be said that its less than 100m. Unknown.
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Temp feat > Fort feat for strength.
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"Gonna need more chloroform..."
"If you look down on us, judge us, condemn us... then you shall fear us!"
Assuming she could actually visually react at that speed which is not evident but if she could, your still underestimating the fact that reaction is not the same as actual movement, or precog. Reacting and dealing with something thats at about 0.05 seconds speed and surprising you is not easy even if you could typically react to the actual "attack" part but not the "surprise".
We know its power deals more damage to kains body than about half a million tonnes based on the PSi resistance Kain has to Raziels claw tip expanded to a square foot. The Wraith blade contacts and damages Kains entire abdomen iirc off hte top of my head which is more than that but its an incredible amount of power. Bayonetta's slash could never compare.
Ill have to see it ,as well as the "frames" and calculations behind the 1/1000th since its hard to imagine. Your playing on gameplay mechanics, the weak-minded part was refering to nosgoth elite/patricians who are by no means less educated than simple grunts and thugs from the sewers who you cannot control due to gameplay. The actually ability Kain gains is from marcus who can indeed mind control. Also show me Bayonetta's willpower feat then please.
Shes using a thicker, longer blade. She will be lucky to do more than pierce Kain with a wound he can ignore/regen from almost instantly. So we can only go by what we have seen, which is closer to 10-50 meters which is the distance some of the platforms shes come across cover.
Well we know she can as we've seen her do it, another example is against Jeanne where she only moved when the bullet was 4 inches from her face. Dodging Kain from 1m is like dodging a bullet from 62m, even with his 'he's behind you!' style she'll have plenty of time. Actually with an attack of 0.05 he'd have to strike from 4millimeters from Bay to equal her bullet timing.
By my calcs Bay is around 3,000x stronger than Raziel, [Raz:700 tons at 1.5m/s - Bay:10,000tons+ at 20m/s(ish, cba to check)] so Wraith will have to be 3kx more powerful then Raz's claws for Bayonetta's slashes to 'not compare'. To note, a normal sword < Shuraba < Pillow Talk, Raz's his claws are around normal sword level right? And isn't Shuraba descried as a soul sucker too?
Falling speed of the rocks is 10~m/s, with Witch Time they were moving 1~cm/s. Thats a thousandth the speed. And for range check 0:04 and look at the rocks at the top, more than 100m high. Is Kain's range over this gap?
Not game'mechs, quotes. Which are > game'mechs. Weak-minded ones may be argued somewhat but not that those viewing Kain as an enemy wont be Charmed by him. And just because Marcus can do something doesnt mean Kain can, ''The Dark Gifts manifest differently in each of us.'' ~Marcus to Kain, BO2, or that Kain remains stationary a whilst using it.
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"Gonna need more chloroform..."
"If you look down on us, judge us, condemn us... then you shall fear us!"
''Blood Omen 2 (...) It is the fourth game in the Legacy of Kain series. Although chronologically it is set between the events of Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain and Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver, the events of the game did not occur in the original history, and only took place in Nosgoth's history due to a paradoxical time-altering event which took place in Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver 2 which distorted the timeline'' Doesn't that mean that Defiance Kain didn't cannonly didn't get Immolate, Berserk, Fury or Charm? (Not that it changes anything in the thread as neither are useful, just curious.)
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Just to give something, I heard that Kain dodged a handgonne(hand-cannon) in a cutscene. If so this would give him half-supersonic reaction times and depending on the type and distance could be considered supersonic to some degree. So If you know of this scene post, it'd help Kains reactions.
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"Gonna need more chloroform..."
"If you look down on us, judge us, condemn us... then you shall fear us!"
We know she can react but your reactions work using both sound, movement and vibrations etc. You dont have to see something to react to it so your belief that she actually sees the bullets moving towards her is not necesserily evident. Thats not a problem, infact looking outside of the box I would not be surprised if he could teleport his sword into her unless she was constantly running.
Where are you getting the 10,000 tons from? I dont belive Temp is 10k tons in weight, how are you getting this weight? yes but Raziels claws took Kain at a tip while your talking about slashing, meaning a large surface area of the sword is going to contact Kain which is why shes going to have to produce well over half a million tons of force to do the same damage the wraith blade did to kain. Based on numbers I doubt shes going to get to that high a figuire. Yes it sucks souls or so it claims but that does not make it similiar to the wraith blade.
It would seem canonically Bayonettas witch time power may not even affect living entities and only inanimate objects based on the fact Fortitudo was unaffected by the witch time. I am curious since your researching it at the moment is there an actual video of living entities being frozen in witch time? Range of what?
Its a game mechanic that he cannot charm "guards" and "thugs", the excuse in-game was that he could not control the weak minded but clearly a sewer thug or bandit is not going to be any more intelligent/trained against mental powers than artistocracy, infact it could be argued their greatly more at risk. It does when Kain absorbs his veins, Marcus was refering to "dark gifts" in general which is the power every vampire has but Kain can "steal" other dark gifts so hes taken what already manifested in Sebastion, Marcus, Faustus etc. This includes the ability to command "human" level minds. Kain remains stationary yes thats true...
Its hard to explain but what that means is that Kain suddenly gains the experiances, memories etc when he pulls the reaver out of Raziel because it creates this new history. You would be correct if you were refering to Soul reaver 1 Kain to some degreem but the developers have already said that the characters are mistaken concerning their effects on time, because little do they know the events "would always" happen that way even if they belive they made it happen from traveling through time.
I cannot remember off the top of my head, the Demon hunters use those sorts of weapons but I think Raziel fights them more than anything .Ill have a look at it, but I dont think theres an actual cutscene.
Thats not witch time, thats lightspeed. The lumen sages use different powers and Balder is arguably vastly more powerful than Bayonetta showing as how easily he did that to her. You could attempt to argue that witch time is the same as lightspeed but only generally, theres only simularities in function that can be compared not practical use.
At around the 32 sec mark she activates it and the dude can be seen climbing towards the helicopter. She has an entire boss fight and after it ends he can still be seen climbing up in the same position while she was already in the helicopter.
However, explaining how she was able to surf on water with physics stopped is another matter entirely. lolbayonetta.
hm strange, not sure what was actually frozen because the waves were not, the angel boss was not. The human was so it seems not all physical objects can be stopped, certainly not on a large scale (the sea) but human level beings can be frozen, unless of course she killed that boss so fast canonically that she was able to get up there before they did which a guy on that link also observed. Maybe theres a lot of things Witch time cannot work on at once.
I am not sure if witch time was evident at all actually since not even the piecies in the cutscene that the creature knocks out of the water were frozen despite being shown to be able to freeze rocks with the witch time so it seems more likely she defeated it and got to the copter before they could get in although the witch time spell glyph in the air would say otherwise so the whole scene is pretty confusing.
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Last edited by Burning thought on May 19th, 2011 at 06:47 PM
^That wasnt Witch Time, when its active we get that purple effect around the screen.
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Demonstrated in the vid Neph posted Bay had neither sound or vibration and only sight when time went back to normal, sight being the only thing she could have used to dodge in that scene. Hm, dont think he can teleport into things, like how Nightcrawler doesn't 'port into things as it would kill him instead of letting his mass take its place. One or the other but cant be proven as a feat.
If Temp's body was a 1m thick shell it would be 6k tons, but this is very unlikely so I used 10k as the the minimum for what he could actually be if most of it was hollow. The difference from stab to slash isnt so significant to assume that Raz's strength+claw point = Bay's strength with blade slash. In most slashes only about 2in of the blade connects to the flesh, the number difference of point and slash with the power increase from the Wraith is still < Bay's strength and Pillow Talk. That is unless you were to use the whole length of the blade and somehow find a way to say how much stronger the Wraith is from normal blades.
Neph covered this. Also in some scene in Witch Time we see a car and people in it to be effected. Some angels in her verse are unaffected or something, cant remember the what it said. Range of anything if he hopes not to be caught in its effects.
And the enemy part? Charm doesn't seem to work when the target is agro. Last time I checked Marcus didnt use all his power and concentration to do so unlike Kain who ''could be seen from the NPC's point of view as closing his eyes and holding his fingers to his temples'' so its not the same as how Marcus does it.
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"Gonna need more chloroform..."
"If you look down on us, judge us, condemn us... then you shall fear us!"
The Angel not being frozen is just it showing it is able to resist supernatural time stop tactics. However it can even have witch time activated against it in the fight.
I have no explanation for the water though, at all. I think that giant angel does have control over weather.
I think unless Kain has shown to not be affected by time manipulation that he would be fair game.
Last edited by TheGoldenSpy on May 19th, 2011 at 09:02 PM
Why only sight when sound and vibration was also evident? bullets make vibration in the air and still make noise while in motion so considering her high reactions she does not actually have to see them, kinda like how she dodged Jeanne, she does not actually move until their near her meaning some "gap" where she could not react. Well thats arguable you see kains not actually teleporting into her, hes teleporting his sword iinto her in my example and his swords path is what he was through/into her anyway. All kains doing when teleporting is making his mass (and that of his sword) fill a certain area elseware and extremely quickly too so her speed would be the only thing stopping him.
What material are you saying he is? because part of him could be marble, some ceramic, pausoline or w/e its called. It is when you considering Raziels clawpoint only has to penetrate an area of 1mm squared by your calculation that I have (it may be less than that) wheras bayonettas slash wil be covering the square area of whatever the whole flat side of her sword is aiming at which could be 10-100x that if not more than what raziel failed to pierce. Well as I said, half a million to a million tonnes more power because the wraith blade hit his entire abdomen.
It seems at best only normal human beings are effected and only some piecies of the environment. Anything more complicated and it either fails or simply cannot effect it. I would like to see actual people being affected, Balder using light speed is not equel to Bayonetta using witch time imo.
Theres no lore specific reason for this, if anything its a player observation based on the gameplay I dont think Kain gives a reason for it, not sure why being angry or aggresive would increase your mental strength. Again thats just a gameplay limit so you cannot just MC all your enemies. So kain uses more concentration than marcus when mind controlling, what does that prove? it does not prove that Kains power or gift is any less, only that to bring it to bear he needs to work harder at it. To be fair I am not surprised, hes only just got the power wheras Marcus has had it and developed it for years.
It wasn't sound as any decent gun fires above Mach 1, and wasn't vibrations as they appear in the trail of the bullet. Teleporting mass into mass has several implications and in any case I remember the user had to have become intangible first. This is a strategy theory that needs more evidence than the character can produce.
Marble makes it 6,300 tons, using all ceramic makes it 4,900 tons with porcelain making 5,900. In fact using the density of bottle cork gives us 600 tons. Due to the speed it could be the same weight as the LoKObelisk and the feat will still be 200x stronger.
Not a big fan of PSI, too many variables and doubt it follows through into games... The area of Raziel's claw tip is 0.0016 in2, for both thats 0.0032 in2. The S.Reaver's cutting area is 0.16in2 using a 4in*0.04in cutting area. (from the length of the curved part of the blade that makes contact) 0.16/0.0032=50x the psi of his claws. This may give it the cutting force over Shuraba (a little less compared to Pillow Talk) but Bay has the advantage of having 6,000 times the strength behind the blade. You may wish to argue that because the claws did't leave the damage the cut did that the S.Reaver's difference should be much higher, if you do we can the double/triple the difference though then we may as well stop using the absolute minimum for Bay's strength, though I don't think you'll like the results. Btw where does Raziel's claws tearing into Kain's chest fit into his durability?
Only some angels are not effected, everyone/thing else is slowed down.
Its like Izaya says, the hardest ones to manipulate are the stupid and the angry. Power wise an unfocused calm mind is easier swayed than a focused mad one. Its not a perfect mind control. It proves that his power is not as good as Marcus' so its only natural that he'd have some trouble on a resisting mind.
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"Gonna need more chloroform..."
"If you look down on us, judge us, condemn us... then you shall fear us!"
Yes but the bullets were not coming at Bay from a gun, but from Balders hand/manipulations. I dont know what your trying to claim here, Kain can teleport, he teleports near enough so that his blade is inside bay or less than mm away or w/e takes his fancy. And what was your assumed thickness of his outer shell?
A lot of things dont follow through into games, like the durability of an oil tanker apprently. The wraith blade barely has a cutting area since the energy around the blade or the souls create a sort of hue that deals damage rather than slices. Shuraba would have at least two square inches (or two inches/mm squared) of blade hitting Kain which means she would be doing as much as 1200x less (about 600+ mm squared in a square inch) damage than the tip of Raziels claw PSIwise before strength is considered. Bay cannot/has not shown the ability to produce the power required to do more than a thrusting impact with her blade (her strength+similiar action to Raziel), she would fail if she had raziels strength but if she has more then even if she pierces, a stab or even 100 of those size wounds cannot bother Kain.
No it doesnt, it proves he needs more concentration to bring to bare his power, the power is still the same hes just not used to it like Marcus is. If he had less power then he would be stuck trying to MC animals or something basic than a human mind. We dont have a resisting mind, Bay has never even encounted such an attack and would be MCed before she even knew what was happening to resist, its not like Kain takes any time to actually take control.
Given the speed the fastest thing after un-pausing would be the bullets I doubt it. Teleporting into someone needs proof of it happening, he can appear close but the one thing he doesn't want to do in get into close combat. Assumed thickness of only 1m ya can't get more generous with this figure. Note if there are complaints about my ground-rolling lowball shell number of 6-10,000 tons, I could just use the solid body number at around 70,000 tons instead.
1200? Raz' area is 0.0032, 2in of a blade will have an area of 0.08. Makes Bay's blade 25x the area, still nothing compared to the strength difference. Wait, what can't she do? All she has to do is stab him a few time, her strength allows damage. What more is that due to the speed difference she'll be able to get more hits on Kain then the single slash that harmed him. So yeah, where does Raziel's claws tearing into Kain's chest fit into his durability?
Marcus can still move around when controlling, obviously Kain isn't at his level. Any mind that's fighting back is resisting, like in-game 'enemies'. It specifically states this, so there needs to be some evidence to contradict this.
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"Gonna need more chloroform..."
"If you look down on us, judge us, condemn us... then you shall fear us!"
Why? all hes doing is teleporting, theres no special reason why he would need extra evidence to teleport closer? Can you show me a still image of Temp next to something for scale? because hes not that big, I feel like his weight is being put at a value higher than it should be. The oil tanker covered a large part of his body and an oil tanker made up of steel, engine etc only weghs a few tonnes.
Each claw is a seperate point, you cant add them together like their a single blade edge, and were talking squares, theres 600+ square millimters (640+) in a square inch, you would have to multiply the millitmeters her blade is touching. Raziels claws penetratd Kain after the wraith blade weakened him, the wraith blades power bypassed and wounded millions of tonnes of durability in one form or another.
At his level of concentation no, but Kain does not have to move around while controlling since hes against one opponent here. Show me where it specifically states their "fighting back" I dont recall please? and then show me how bayonetta is going to be "fighting back"?
I meant the teleport into people thing. Pause when the lorry hits Temp. The red cab part is over 3m, whole length being 15m, making the circle 15m. Here we can see that that height is over twice the size of the circle, H=40m. The width and length are between half [at the bottom] and as long as [at the top] the height. W/L=30m. Ellipsoid surface area x1m thick shell is 10,000 tons (34733025.77324[surface area]*100cm=3473302577.324*2.6=9030586700g=9954tons) with a solid body gives 54,000 tons. (18849555921.53876[volume]*2.6=49008845400g=54023tons) The volume of Temp is 80x that of the obelisk.
But he hits Kain with both claws, so spread over both points. ? 2in(blade length)*0.04in(1mm)=0.08in2 compared to the 0.0032in2 of Raziel's. Well here we see the vertical wound where Raz plunged his fist in with the horizontal cut left from the Reaver. As you can see the part where the blade cuts hardly touches the part where he was clawed, the main pressure would be towards the top. So the slash didn't really help get the claw in.
The part where it states that it only works on non-aggressive people.
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"Gonna need more chloroform..."
"If you look down on us, judge us, condemn us... then you shall fear us!"
I know, what evidence do you think I would need to suggest Kain can teleport? when you know he can? The whole vehichle nearly covers half of its body, Temp is probably about as thick as the vehicle is long, give or take. And for those numbers your assumption is that the shell is 100% marble? Also large portions of the front of Temp are stained glass. Wouldnt be surprised if a lot of Temp are simply mosaics and ornamental materials since thats what he looks like.
So thats 2 inches of blade, e..g the tip of her Katana but shoving the tip through kain wont do much at all and pressure is spread in a "square" area so it would still be 2 square inches roughly of force in square millitmerers, that would be hundreds of times Raziels PSI area hence why the point of a blade (like a rapier, or a pin) has more PSI than the edge.
That does not mean their mentally fighting anything, or aware of what Kain is doing. Its just a gameplay mechanic, can you show me the actual video where it says aggressive people cannot be charmed?
KMC Community Forums
May 18th, 2011 11:02 PM
Doesn't that mean that Defiance Kain didn't cannonly didn't get Immolate, Berserk, Fury or Charm? (Not that it changes anything in the thread as neither are useful, just curious.)
