It's true that we've had Jedi drawing off Yavin before, but I'd argue that that was before nexuses were fleshed out and detailed. But granted, Jedi hindrances on the nexus weren't fleshed out at the time of Anakin vs Ventress either.
No, she recognized the style after the gas went into her eye. Watch the fight again.
That quote wasn't even relevant to Barrier, lol.
However, the Prima Guide states the Exile can use Barrier and Energy Resistance to at least weaken Vrook's lightsaber assaults, and the Prima Guide also states she can use Valor, Aura and Barrier to "change the tide of any battle" - this isn't relevant to class mechanics either. The best part is that this is all prior to her learning Enlightenment, which would boost those powers even further.
Then there's Kreia telling you to absorb the powers of one of the Jedi Masters (including Vrook) with the Force, even when they're using Force Absorption. Yes, it's the DS-storyline, so it's not canon, but I accept it anyway on the basis of it being something that "could have" happened, just didn't necessarily happen in the canonical timeline.
Nobody mentioned this at all, lol. So that's a red herring.
I made no comparisons to Starkiller in my post, but what exactly are Marek (not Starkiller)'s Barrier and other defensive Force power feats as of his battle with Shaak Ti? He grew in power afterwards.
She's a talented user of Juyo, which also makes her a high-level master of multiple lightsaber forms. That, and she's stalemated Brianna, a life-trained combatant who blitzed all of her other Handmaiden sisters. Now, Brianna had already been trained for life as a combatant in numerous Echani martial arts (unarmed and with weapons) before being trained by the Exile, and at that point in time, she was the "last of the Handmaidens", in everything, including combat (the other Handmaidens mention this). Yet when she returned after being trained by the Exile, she blitzed them all (the screen cuts to black but you hear them all screaming in rapid succession - in cut content you get to choose whether to kill or stun them, but the blitz cutscene plays regardless IIRC). And Atris fought Brianna to an absolute standstill immediately after she stomped her sisters.
She's depicted in KotORCG artwork as having beaten and slain HK series assassin droids, and as I recall it was a HK-47 assassin droid model? The KotORCG also stats that she's second to Nihilus in mastery of the dark side.
Appealing to the majority is a great way to cover up a lack of a case. Sion one-shotted Kreia as of the Harbinger, and alongside Atton Rand before he was trained and Surik before she really regained her Force ability, Kreia's beaten Sith Assassins ("specialized Jedi butchers") who were ambushing her and feeding off her Force-sensitivity to become stronger.
He's also stated repeatedly to be one of the strongest and most powerful Sith of the era, but I think that goes without saying.
Kreia knows Force Channel as well as Shii-Cho, Makashi and Soresu regardless of your class. She also knows Trakata based on KotORCG. As for her knowledge of the remaining forms being different depending on your class, that doesn't make any difference. It just means she knew them all and only revealed a select amount.
She won by virtue of combat ability, which is all that matters.
Rank, in it of itself, is not a show of power. It does say something about Visas' skill, yes i agree. But I've played the game, I understand you all have, yes? Aside from taking on her Sith Master after he failed to feed of the Exile, what else has she done? Not to mention there's this.
As Nihilus's Shadow Hand, Visas does her lord's bidding. This includes
tracking down a disturbance in the Force that turns out to be the Jedi Exile.
They cross lightsabers, and Visas is summarily beaten.
—KotorCG
False, neither the Prima guide, nor the Kotor Campaign guide suggest such a thing. Here's a scan.
Then are we in agreement that the amplification of the Yavin energies is rather negligible when regarding that particular fight?
You misunderstand, Luminara fought Ventress before recognizing her form, thus giving her an insight to her battle form prior to being blinded. That is what i meant.
It's mashed together in your barrier section, thus relevant.
Indeed, the quote therein is immediately followed by?
Master Vrook wields a double-bladed lightsaber with
Master Flurry feat to get extra attacks against you. He
also uses a variety of defensive Force powers,
especially Master Heal. To survive his onslaught,
protect yourself with Force Barrier and Energy
Resistance, then take advantage of Vrook's lack of
armor by attacking aggressively with your best melee
combat feats. Attacks like Force Lighting are only
moderately effective since Master Vrook almost always
makes his saving throw. With your companions healing
you with medpacs or Force powers while you continuously
attack, you should be able to easily outlast the
Jedi Master and strike him down.
—Kotor prima guide
Not to mention that prior to that quote, it mentions a Game mechanic
"Use critical strike to ensure that your blows strike home"
—Kotor Prima guide
I already know this, Nova. I also know that prior to that section, quite literally next to it, there's talk of the several different attributes. then there's a "tip" subquent of where that quote comes from, that mentions game mechanics. Even admidst that quote there's mention of game mechanics.
It's non canonical, but i digress.
Only this:
On the floor of a massive starfighter assembly rig, he stopped with his head raised and his lightsaber cocked. A prickling in the back of his neck warned him of a new threat just as a railgun charge exploded to his right, sending bits of TIE fighter in all directions. He deflected the main force of the explosion, but was still stung by tiny pieces of shrapnel down the back of his right hand.
—The Force Unleashed Novelization.
Starkiller's hurled away by his own lightning and continues with no visible effort
Kota only laughed. Raising his left hand in a move that was a mirror image of the apprentice's own, he sent the lightning arcing back to its source. The energy struck both of them, hurling them apart.
The apprentice broke off the attempt, blinking smoke away from his eyes. His anger intensified. He was the first to his feet and running as soon as his boots touched the deck. He felt completely weightless, yet full of momentum, like a hurled spear. His red blade cut a blur through the air, aimed hard at Kota's throat.
—The Force Unleashed Novelization
Tanking his own Telekinetic blast and continuing to fight.
The Jedi general ducked and swept his green lightsaber up and down in a lazy attempt to catch him as he went by. That was a move the apprentice had long ago learned to avoid by tucking his head down closer to his center of gravity and rolling in midair, then kicking himself back at his opponent off the nearest wall. This time he pushed telekinetically as he came, attempting to knock Kota's feet out from under him before bringing his blade to bear.
Again, however, Kota deflected his Force energies back at him. Again they were pushed apart.
More cautiously the apprentice circled him, slicing chairs to pieces as he walked and sending the glowing fragments at his enemy's head. Anger made him eager to attack, but he knew better than to give in to it. He hadn't been humiliated. He had successfully tested Kota's defenses. Now that he knew a direct attack would probably fail, he had to find another way to get closer to the man. Or to make the Jedi come to him.
—The Force Unleashed Novelization
We know what his Pushes can do:
A single, powerful push scattered them like doll
—TFU novelization
Yes, but she nowhere near mastered the from did she? Versus Shaak Ti who did master Ataru and Makashi. Let's not forget that, unlike Atris and the other vast majority of the Exile's foes, Shaak is listed among the greatest swordbeings and is too, considered one of their most accomplished duelists.
You're not telling me anything i don't already know, Nova.
But allow me to pose a question: Is her superiority to her sisters not due to both her training and her force training under the Exile?
I've looked through her entry in there, it says nothing about her being second to Nihilus.
Is that so?
Right after she and her allies engaged a better equipped assault droid? and several combat ready Assassins, you mean?
As i stated before, Nova. She did all this prior to fight Sion.
Are we also choosing to ignore the fact that the exile is able to negate the draining abilities of someone like Nihilus? This ability is inherent
Perhaps, it hinders the abilities of these assassins.
Yes, but he lacks the showings to contend with the top warriors of his era.
It makes a great deal of difference, unless you choose to ignore canon in favor of something else. We know very little about the Exile's path, I've emailed drew asking him if the Exile's lightsaber color was any indication of her class and he responded by saying that he chose it because "it seemed like the most light sided color"
The fact remains, that Kreia's knowledge of the forms, as well as those of the Jedi Masters,(with the exception of Atris), are dictated by the player's choice, that is a fact.
Anything else is just speculation, Nova.
Yes, quite like Shaak Ti had a powerful and extremely skilled duelist like Starkiller on the defensive right? a guy who met the astonishing speed of Rahm Kota? sparred Vader to the brink of exhaustion. completely eviscerated Kazdan Paratus and bested Proxy several times.
You're hurting your argument by bringing this up. This is just proof that Luminara wasn't really hindered dramatically against Ventress.
Again, I'm not sure how you regard game mechanic-esque quotes from the Prima Guide, but I'm more lenient to them if only for the sake of providing material for more obscure characters (Vrook and Atris, for instance).
That's a pretty good feat. The other feats aren't Barrier, though, they're just durability.
Completely irrelevant.
Based on what? It's listed as her primary talent anyway, so there's credence lent to the idea of her having mastered the form.
Shaak isn't facing the Exile's opponents. She's facing the Exile herself, and Surik's gone down as one of the greatest Jedi heroes in history.
Right, but you neglected to mention that before, either out of ignorance or out of trying to make Atris seem less impressive. I was merely giving more material to make Atris's capabilities clearer and more impressive.
That's what I said. It doesn't have anything to do with the point anyway.
It's not in the Visas entry, it's in the Shadow Hand entry.
Quite so.
What are you implying? That she tired as a result of engaging them? Nothing implies that.
Which isn't relevant unless you can prove that she tired or weakened as a result of fighting them. The point is that she's fairly skilled even at this point in time.
Kreia doesn't share the Exile's benefits because she's not a Wound in the Force, and by her own admission she does not know of a technique to defend against that type of Drain.
No, it would just negate it if it was used on her (Meetra). Kreia, though? She's not a Wound in the Force, nor does she possess a defense against Drain by her own admission, and she's fallen victim to the technique before.
He is canonically one of the top warriors of his era, lol.
I'm not ignoring canon, lmao. The fact is that she knows the techniques but simply never disclosed it to the Exile, unless you can prove otherwise. She knew the techniques in another "continuity', if you like, of the exact same circumstances, only it just didn't happen in the canonical Legends continuity. I accept feats from the DS versions as long as there is no drastic contradiction, because it's still what "could have" occurred, but what did not necessarily actually occur.
So what? That doesn't suggest they don't know those forms regardless, lol.
Just because it didn't happen doesn't mean it couldn't have happened if we've already received indication of its possibility.
Marek wasn't "extremely skilled" at that point in time. Marek admitted that Vader had held back or he had capitulated every time in their spars, and he never saw Vader's full ability until their final duel.
Rahm Kota's astonishing speed delivered him a K.O. by Boba Fett's punch.
Proxy doesn't have feats to suggest he's more skilled than somebody you lowball like Sion.
As for Paratus, I don't recall Marek "completely eviscerating" him in lightsaber combat. As I recall, Marek was giving ground and losing the duel, but Paratus sent his manequins to attack Marek instead, which resulted in Galen destroying them and Paratus' insanity kicking in, which left him crying and defenseless as Galen killed him with the Force.
Except she was, and despite that she fought Ventress to a standstill via USW.
And the Exile, but I digress. Simply put, I don't view them as canon due to the fact that guide it self is full of inconsistencies when connected to the game itself. Such as Atris as Traya, Vrook using a saberstaff, to name a few.
Nova, the guide itself references that the Exile is aided by her allies in her battle against Vrook, we both know this is untrue. if you're willing to accept the Prima guide's mechanical aspects, then you must accept it, and it's inconsistencies, in it's entirety.
Found another:
Lifting the diminutive alien into the air, the apprentice swung his captive from side to side, smashing him into the window frames and roof until rubble rained down on them both. He deflected the worst of it from himself and saved the damage for Paratus.
—TFU Noveilization
No, it's not, for Starkiller and Grievous are amongst Ti's most impressive feats. This is a fact.
I've already disproved this, Nova. Nothing suggests she mastered the form. And you're "evidence" is based on speculation, not fact. Yes she may be a practitioner of other forms, but what are they?
She did not master anything.
That's cool, Ti has earned the respect and contempt of Darth Vader. Is revered by the Order, and is listed among the top swordbeings of her time.
It wasn't never done out of ignorance nor lowballing, Nova. She's good, but not good enough.
I think that, going on several adventures with the Jedi Exile and training under her would put Brianna comfortably above her complacent sisters, ones who never any sort of action.
So are we all just going to assume that rank equates power? This is an inherent flaw people.
Fine, let's acknowledge that she's second only to Nihilus, so where does that leaver her in the grand scheme of things? On par with Sion? nearing Kreia level?
Ah, aha
Oh so, now implication and explicit statements matter? Good, now we can get to the meat of it.
Yes, Kreia's showing of Telepathy and sensing Sion are quite impressive, this is not sarcasm, but Nova Kreia's done very little in this fight. What's more, we know nothing about what abilities she had at the times and what she used.
Nothing i don't already know, Nova.
However, I could point at a time where, Nihilus failed to drain Mandalore and Visas in the presence of the Exile.
We know nothing of what path the exile chose, ergo we know nothing of what the masters or Kreia taught her. Done.
So, essentially, it's non-canon in the Legends continuity.
But there's a huge flaw there, you say "as long as there is no drastic contradiction" but the Exile murdering and draining Vrook is a pretty drastic contradiction to the canon storyline because it affects how the story ends.
Yes it does, because of two important reasons. The Exile's path dictates what forms she learns, thus player controlled, the Exile's advance rank changes everything. Meaning:
A Jedi Guardian could learn Ataru/Juyo, then become a Jedi Master/Sith Lord and learn the the force forms. Thus equating player's choice
Perhaps, but the point remains.
Correct! But even when toying with his prey, Vader has sent shudders down their arms with his very strength as per the Rise of Darth Vader.
Who in turn had manage to survive Vader's onslaught prior to that.
I've played the games, probably more times than most people should.
Sion's feats in order of appearance:
Decapitating Darth Traya's hand with a lightsaber while she wielded a sword.
Literally, beat up Traya.
Killed Lonna Vash, the circumstances surrounding her death are ambiguous.
Fought the Exile to a standstill on Korriban while, as stated by Sion himself, "the power of Korriban ran through his veins"
Fought the Exile on Malachor while, as stated by him, drawing on the power of the warped planet. Was beaten several times.
TK .
It was somewhat even, surpisingly. Kazadan met his blows decently and outpaced Starkiller due to his mechanical legs. It was then that Starkiller caught him in a grip, and killed him.
I'm open to a conclusion to this debate, Nova. The Exile's impressive, as is Aryn, But i don't see team two winning. I'm open to counter arguments from whomever wants to make them.
Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force
Arguing whether or not legends content is less or more canon than other legends content is the epitome of nihilism. None of legends is canon and legends itself has no rules we must conform to. Leland Chee once made the excellent observation that everything in Star Wars 'canon' carried weight and was not rendered irrelevant due to a lack of conforming to other works, specifically he referred to how the novelisations of the movies were simply other views of what happened in the feature films.
Revan isn't a Jedi guardian, consular, or sentinel in his fleshed out appearances, instead he is a very powerful and skilled mix of all three. By what logic do we need employ the same out-dated formula to the Exile when Revan proves that such game mechanics are almost entirely irrelevant to anything bar gameplay.
Furthermore a solid case for the Exile primarily being a master swordswoman in contrast to the more powerful Revan being a Force powerhouse, can definitely be made.
__________________
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Last edited by AncientPower on Jul 19th, 2015 at 07:52 AM
Can't quote the post directly so I'll have to do this the old fashioned way.
No, she wasn't, and Soresu was a factor in that IMO.
That's because the game some cut content out and changed things after the Guide was released/the Guide never changed them back.
Kreia actually states in her TP lesson to the Exile that she can defeat Vrook by using allies. Again, a post-guide change.
Not as good as the other one, tbh.
What the heck does Grievous have to do with Galen's Pushes? And Shaak didn't do particularly well against Grievous anyway.
Fightsaber states that any practitioner of Juyo is a high-level master of multiple forms. Atris is a practitioner of Juyo, so regardless of whether or not she mastered Juyo, she's a high-level master of at least two other forms.
She was also supposedly a rival of Mace and Obi-Wan as a swordsman, which obviously isn't the case.
Yes, it was. You either neglected to mention it because you didn't know about it, or intentionally neglected it because you wanted to make her look impressive. Otherwise, why wouldn't you mention her one combat feat, and a notable one at that?
Which isn't at all relevant to my point of Atris stalemating Brianna.
You can keep lobbing the red herrings up and I'll keep knocking them back down. I never said anything about rank equals power, but the quote in the Shadow Hand entry specifically states she's second only to Nihilus, lol.
We know that she was capable of combatively defeating them, which is what matters.
Really? You're leaving an awful lot of information out, then.
Visas has already displayed resistances to Nihilus' Drain on Katarr, and Mandalore probably didn't even register to Nihilus if the hype about him is even remotely accurate.
What they taught her =/= what they know. It's entirely possible and more likely that they knew all of it and only taught the Exile specific techniques based on her class/order of planets (a mechanic you also overlooked, but regardless, it doesn't stop their knowledge of various forms from being canon).
I'm talking about drastic power contradictions, obviously. I would've thought that anybody would innately recognize that the DS storyline would have story differences to the LS storyline.
That's relative to the strength of his opponent.
Survived what onslaught?
That doesn't explain your stance on Proxy. How is Proxy better than Sion, especially since the Exile beat him repeatedly on one of the most powerful dark side nexuses in the galaxy.
That has nothing to do with skill. And Paratus isn't notably powerful unless I missed something, though his construction of the junk warriors is pretty solid. Not particularly impressive as a showing of power, though, more like mastery. And please don't mention Vader stating Paratus is far more powerful than Galen as evidence of Paratus' power.
Kazdan isn't particularly notable in skill or power anyway. Not seeing this being as good as the Exile's skill feats at all.
We can agree to disagree if you would like to. As it stands, the Exile is probably slightly more skilled than Shaak and has a number of unique traits/versatility to offer her the slight edge.
I never said that Legends canon was non-canonical, I said the the Game mechanics mentioned by Nova, were non-canonical. I reiterate, game mechanics. I also pointed out the inconsistencies of the Prima guide, which are also considered non-canonical yes?
No, not in the new continuity, but Legends is referred to as "Legends" because it is treated as an old and completely different continuity from new one. This is a fact.
Common sense would dictate that we continue as before, only this time we state which character is being used in thread/debate and such.
Yes, this true. However, I already stated that i was not implying that Legends is no longer canon and should therefore be discarded. I'm debating for Shaak Ti, a character who's best feats come from the Legends continuity. What I am saying only applies to the game mechanic aspects of the debate and character.
Those quotes that are particularly alluding to the mechanical facet of the character and game, are quotes i don't take seriously what-so-ever.
That notwithstanding, when we talk about the Dark Side versions of these character, when the thread creator specifies what incarnation of that character is being used in the thread. Then, and only then, do I take the dark side version of that character, serious.
However as it stands, and using reasonable logic, game mechanics and the use of a character's Dark Side version in a thread that, at least in my understanding, has Meetra as Light Sided, is foolhardy.
Admittedly, it's been a while since i've looked at the Revan respect thread, but were there not quote stating that he was a Soldier during Kotor and later he became a Guardian?
Yes, it most definitely can. Shaak Ti, however, has no need for a case for she's already confirmed to be a great swordbeing and a master duelist.
Anyway, Nova. I'll respond to your comments in awhile. I feel there's stuff i may have to concede, but yeah.
The only source we have for Revan being a guardian is the fact that he had a blue lightsaber during KotOR, and he was most likely a scout during the earlier portions of the game.
Revan's not a consular. It has nothing to do with combat styles, and more to do with your role in the Jedi overall. Revan was the Jedi's greatest champion during KotOR and was not just a "masterful duelist" but also given the role of a fighter in the Order. If they wanted him to be a consular, he would have had a green lightsaber, not a blue one. Even in the comics before KotOR, he always wielded a blue lightsaber, and this was back when colors actually mattered. He practically screams guardian, if a more Force focused one.
Registered: Jul 2014
Location: Off learning Ground Realities
He wielded a green Lightsaber though, during the Revan novel.
He also devoted much of his life to studying all of the Jedi forms, their force techniques and intricate secrets. The fact he's a strong combatant does not at all mean he's a Guardian. He kept to strategy more than fighting front lines anyway.
__________________ "i admire u choose cersei as ur avi sel. at least u know that ur one sick *****, i can respect that" - Inturpid.
Jul 16th, 2015 10:07 PM
