Registered: Jun 2016
Location: The Throne of the Sheevites
Of course it's hyperbole. Not sure how that defeats my point, though, since it obviously still implies he could've fought for a really long time.
The dark side energy that was being redirected was all coming from Sidious. It's not like he gained some additional boost from his own finite pool of energy, lol.
Except my argument never had anything to do with stamina, but speed, so no, it's not contradictory.
I defer to Myth's point in this regard, the novelisation makes it clear that the reason Palpatine would not fatigue was because of the superconducting loop. To highlight the point:Sidious became part of a circuit, the energy flowing out of him passing through Windu to flow back in, hence the absence of fatigue.
On the other hand despite only toying around, Sidious is visibly fatigued after a minute or so of fighting against the Maul brothers.
Which proves your claim wrong.
According to simple logic.
Stamina is essentially the amount of power or energy you can expend before exhaustion, and therefore is entirely relative the energy demanded by the task at hand, or rather the power and threat of your opponent.
And because stamina and power are relative, to be pressed hard by your opponent is to draw deeply on your reserves. Just as you would have to draw deeply on your own "reserves" to lift a taxing weight or resist a pressing force. Reserves in those contexts, simply being another word for strength or power.
See above.
No you don't, because you are holding back a gargantuan amount. Hence why its a common trope for the hero to get trashed when they curb their powers against a serious and lethal opponent, or why it would be entirely unwise for a talented street fighter to hold back in a fight against a lethal killer.
This is again, simple logic.
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Last edited by Beniboybling on Jan 17th, 2017 at 04:38 PM
Sure, a really long time... How long, though? That could just be hours. It's a vague, unquantifiable quote.
The quote outright says he's part of the superconducting loop.
Stamina and speed are equally influenced by Force augmentation, so they are connected. You're drawing on your reserves to move as fast as you are, your reserves are literally feeding your stamina. So it is contradictory.
Registered: Jun 2016
Location: The Throne of the Sheevites
Alright, fair enough. I'll stop using this point to argue Sidious' stamina from now on.
And the reason he was fatigued was because he was messing around, not drawing on the Force very deeply. Given that he doesn't let out a single sigh/moan/whatever after that, I'm inclined to believe he simply washed away his exhaustion with the Force, like Dooku did in RotS:
He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away.
If Sidious had truly been fatigued, then there'd have been more panting and not just a single sigh.
Yes, this does make sense for normal humans who have no Force to draw upon. But Force users can simply restore all of their stamina on the fly, like Dooku did in the example above. He was drawing very deeply on the Force to not get crushed by Anakin's meteor strike-esque blows, to the point where each strike "aged him a decade". Yet even a momentary break allowed Dooku to restore all of his stamina with absolutely no issue. The junior novel even outright dismisses the possibility of Anakin outlasting Dooku:
He's old, Anakin thought. Maybe I can just outlast him. But the power of the dark side flowed around him, denying that possibility. The dark side would keep Dooku going for as long as he needed.
Obviously there is a limit to how many times Force users can replenish their stamina, but I hope you get my point: Force users' power/strength isn't relative to their stamina. It would be perfectly accurate to say Dooku had only begun to tap into his reserves at the conclusion of his fight with Anakin, despite being pressed harder than he'd ever been.
I believe this to be the case with Sidious and his fight Maul, as well, for I do believe Sidious was legitimately pressed (I'll elaborate down below), yet Maul noted he had only begun tapping into his reserves, which means he wasn't tired and could keep going for much longer.
Your examples only make sense if the fighters are in the same speed class. If I, for example, were twice as fast as a normal human in literally every aspect of life, and I wanted to live my life doing everything twice as fast as a regural human, then in order for me to function normally and remain in control of my actions, my sense of perception would have to be twice as fast as well. What I mean by this is that I would percieve everything in slow motion. For example, a car going 50 km/h would be percieved as going 25 km/h by me.
The above scenes are from Quicksilver's perspective and show the world around him in slow motion. Even bullets are so slow to him that it would be impossible for him to "barely" dodge them. He can make it look like he has difficulty doing so from the perspective of normal people, or that he barely managed to evade in time, but in reality it's as easy to him as breathing. Quicksilver isn't going to "barely" dodge bullets, it's an impossibility for him.
In a similar sense, Sidious is faster than an unamped Maul by an unholy amount. So he'd logically be also perceiving Maul's lightsaber attacks in slow motion, making it impossible for him to be "barely" able to deflect them. Sure, he could feign weakness, but the DS sourcebook mentions no such thing. The DS sourcebook's statement only makes sense if the enraged Maul was truly matching Sidious' speed and making him work for it.
Did you just intentionally leave out the very next sentence?
Sidious shifted like a liquid shadow, maneuvering around his apprentice. Maul was suddenly up against the wall, gasping for breath as his vision blurred. His strength was evaporating.
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Last edited by Azronger on Jan 19th, 2017 at 07:44 PM
Fair, but the point is that if Palpatine was struggling in this instance, he should have shown signs of fatigue. Unless he was in fact holding back and could easily wash it all away.
That's Dooku, and I'm not inclined to believe its normal for Force sensitives at all, since its replicated nowhere. When a Force user gets exhausted, they remain so, they don't click their fingers and heal to full.
Which makes me inclined to believe this is a special power taught to him by Sidious.
Point being that Dooku was fatigued, and did draw deeply on his reserves (as he is in fact described to in the fight), to the point of utter depletion, but had a trump card by which he could circumvent that.
Naturally Sidious should have this power too, but likewise he should only consider using it once his personal reserves were exhausted.
Terrible example I'm afraid, this is not X-Men, and Sidious is not Quicksilver. He does not see the world in slow motion. Instead a Force wielders powers and perceptions are only as enhanced as they make them to be. For example when Dooku immerses himself in the Force in preparation for combat, his perceptions are altered as well:
So no, if Sidious wasn't fully immersed in the Force he simply wouldn't be as fast, as strong, as perceptive etc. and his disadvantage against Maul would be very real.
Because it happens next yes, as in after, not seeing any reason to believe his strength had already evaporated before that.
Registered: Jun 2016
Location: The Throne of the Sheevites
Um, he was holding back a tremendous amount.
Okay, fair enough.
Who's to say Sidious wasn't fully immersed in the Force? He was in a combat situation, just like Dooku. And don't tell me it was because Maul was fodder. Dooku considered Anakin and Obi-Wan to be fodder as well; the text makes it very clear.
And Sidious doesn't have to be Quicksilver, nor does Star Wars have to be X-men. It was simply a visual illustration of my point; pictures tell more than a thousand words, as the old saying goes, isn't that right?
The faster you move, the slower time appears to flow around you. Sidious is moving faster than Maul can perceive. Therefore, from Sidious' perspective, Maul would appear to be standing still or close to it. As I have said many times, it would be impossible for him to "barely" be able to deflect his blows if he could blitz Maul any time he wanted. The only reasonable explanation for it is that Maul was legitimately pressing Sidious.
No, it was already happening. You would have a point if the text said something along the lines of "his strength was beginning to evaporate", but instead it says "his strength was evaporating", as in it already was. This should be rather obvious from the previous sentence where Maul's vision is blurring.
I also wonder how you concluded "speedblitz" from "manuevering like a liquid shadow".
I'm talking about the fight we are discussing, in which case correct.
Because if he was and was despite that being legitimately overpowered by his apprentice, he would have been forced to draw deeply on his reserves, as well as display signs of exhausation. He did not, therefore he was not, and because he was not Maul was able to legitimately overpower him, without being a Plagueis-tier opponent.
Yes it was, but there is no evidence to suggest it started to happen before Palpatine vanished, instead Maul is depicted as at the height of his rage:
I'm not seeing any room for Maul's strength suddenly depleting between him raging at his master, and Sidious vanishing, and his vision only blurs after the fact as well.
First of all I didn't say speedblitz, but vanish, it which case yeah its obvious. A shadow is something that is both intangible and appears instantly, with the speed of light, to move as a liquid shadow therefore is to be in one place then and a different place the next. The fact that Maul is described as suddenly up against the wall only reinforces this.
Jan 17th, 2017 03:55 PM
