KMC Forums - Mask Of The Phantasm Vs Batman

quote:
Originally posted by Mr Parker

I never said that Keaton acting like a bumbling idiot was his fault.I just said that thats why I liked Kilmers Batman better because he didnt act like a bumbling idiot which is one of the reasons I prefer batman Forever over the others.

Ive always said that Tim Burton did a horrible job of directing the batman movies because he knew nothing about the character or he would never have cast keaton for the role in the first place since he doesnt even come close to looking the part.

No they are NOT better than the third because the third is more loyal to the comic than the first two are.The people who HAVE read the comics and like the first two better,are obviously just big fans of Tim Burton and Keaton like that last poster is because the movie totally butchered his character with the killings.Killing the joker his arch enemy was totally inexcusable and stupid.the screenwriters who decided that should be shot for that atrocity.see you are putting words in my mouth because i never said it has to be an exact carbon copy of the comic.I am all for changes just as long as they are reasonable.but killing the joker and others is a blaspheny on the batman mythos and the joker killing his parents was totally stupid because thats what drives Bruce wayne to be batman is he doesnt know who killed his parents.Now since he knows who killed them,he might just as well have hung up the cape and cowl and quit after that.I am all for changes just as long as they are reasonable.those changes were NOT reasonable.

Like In the spider-man movie for instance,in the comics,Green Goblin was not the first villain spider-man faced,it was the chameleon.But I got no problem with the Green Goblin being his first villain he faces in the movie because I agree that thats who he should have faced in the first film because thats who his arch enemy is. Green goblin being Petes first villain to fight instead of chameleon=reasonable change.The Joker killing Bruce waynes parents=Stupid change,get the picture?

Ok lets get a couple of things straight here.

Firstly Batman did not intend to kill the Joker in the movie, in fact he ended up dangling from the ledge because he was tring to help the Joker. He was never tring to kill the Joker he was just tring to stop him from escaping. All he did was tie the Joker to a Gargoil statue, it was just meant to prevent him from getting away. It was just bad luck that the statue broke instead, so stop making it sound like Batman set out to kill the Joker.

Second, I notice that you neglet to mention that Batman actually did kill Two Face in Batman Forever. Unlike in the case of the Joker I think Batman knew what he was doing when he tossed those coins in Forever.

Third, the quality of a movie is not totaly dependant on how close to the original material the product is. You say that the third movie is more true to the comics than the first two, fine, that still does not make it a better movie. When bringing another persons creation onto the screen you have to try and make it your own, and Burton succeds in doing this. Look any comic book reader will tell you that even within any comic book that a character changes as the writers of the title changes so it is inevitable that there will be changes in the movie. Take for example the Spider-Man movie. I hated the fact that they made Spideys webs organic instead of a web shooter, and I hated the fact that there was no Gwen, or the fact that Peter's scientific knowlege was played down for the most part. But even so I did get over these changes and enjoyed the movie, and I think it was good. If I was to be like you then I would just say the movie is crap because of the organic webs and other changes that I did not like.

Fourth, the reason that they made the Joker the killer of Bruces parents is to make the joker more than just another villan to Batman. In the comic they did these by making the Joker kill robin and paralize Bat-Girl. Obviously they did not have the time to do these in the movie so they made him kill his parents instead. Likewise what made the Green Goblin Spideys worst enemy was the fact that he killed Gwen. It just makes it so much more personnal and interesting when the villan has killed someone close to the hero.

Fifth, the fact that he knows who killed his parents does not mean that he gives up being Batman. He did not become Batman to search for his parents killers. If he wanted to do that he could have just hired some of the best investigators in the world to solve the case, it would have been quicker and a lot more easier. The reason he became Batman is not to catch the people responsible but to try and prevent it from happening to others, so I don't see how that would mean he stops being Batman once he finds out who killed his parents. You know when you make comments like that, it makes me wonder if you even know the character of Batman.

quote:
Originally posted by Mr Parker

When people try to defend Burtons Batman movies,they always try to point out with laughable statements that it was a great film because it made so much money.according to that logic,they got to concede that Phantom menace is the best star wars movie made.

Like that one poster said,the more loyal to the comic,the better the film is.even if you judge it as a seperate entity and not as a comic,its still a horrible film because no matter how bad those goons of the jokers were or what the joker did in the past,batman is not authorized to take the law into his own hands and he should have been wanted for murder at the end instead of being treated like a damn hero.Horrible screenwriting on the writers part. sorry but I maintain that Batman Forever is the better product than the first two films.a batman movie should have lots of action in it which the first two films poorly lacked and they just stood around talking practically the whole damn time.the third film had lots of action in it like a batman movie should have and the special effects made it feel like a comicbook movie.

No we dont know for sure he killed Two face in Batman Forever.People assume he did but there was no overwhelming proof that he did like there was in the first film that The Joker did in fact die.It was never announced that he died so we dont know for sure that he did.Just like in the first film,I assume that the guy he threw down the belltower died,but there is no evidence that he did die for sure so I dont count that guy as someone he killed,so we dont know for sure that he died or that Two Face died either.

I have never heard the "it was a great film because it made so much money" argument and I have never used it so I don't know where you got that from.

I don't know why you think that a Batman movie should have lots of action in it. By that reasoning the forth film is better than the first two and I would like to see you get people to agree to that. Batman comics were never fundamentaly about action, it was always about Batmans ability as a detective and problem solver. The only time we saw this in the third movie was when he solved those ediotic riddles by the riddler.

Look everyone knows that Two Face is dead at the end of the movie. The writers/director/actors/viewers all know he is dead and the only one that seems to think he is still alive is you. Look in a comic book movie once a villan knows the heros identity there is mostly only one of two ways to go, they either die or they go crazy/loose their memory. Just because there was no huge neon sign saying "Two Face is dead" does not mean he is alive, it is obvious to everyone that he is dead. And even if by some miracle he was to survive that still does not change what Batman did, there is no way that he could know that he would survive it.

At the end of the day Batman kills in both movies so they are both guilty of that. As for the police wanting Batman for murder, they saw what happened at the end with him and the Joker and they know that he did not kill Joker, and it was just an accident. Besides I don't think that they would arrest him after he just saved all those people, especially for the death of the Joker or his goons.

At the end of the day the first movie is better than the third in almost every way. To me the proof of this is that when Batman comes on the TV, I almost always watch it, while if the third movie comes on I try and avoid it.