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Originally posted by outarddwarf
this is totally nuts!

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Originally posted by Thunderstrike
Cosigned. Very hard to follow.

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Originally posted by spetznaz
LEt me try to answer your questions:

First of all who in my team is a nuclear physicist?
Well ....let me say that in Pre-Crisis times Superman was a unltra-genius. He could whip up thingimajigs that would make Reed Richards cry foul!
In modern times Superman is not written as having that same type of insane intellect (although in All Star Superman he has even gone beyond his former intellect into new levels), but Kal El is still extremely intelligent. It is just not shown as often or to the same scale as it used to be shown when he was shiving moons about.

However he is still very intelligent.
Think of his fortress of Solitude.
Think of his Superman robots ....which he himself built to such high levels that they are extremely powerful and capable (one such Superman robot took out the Titans and Young Justice, and in the process killed Donna Troi and some other person, and messed up the other members of the two teams ....including 2 flashes, Superboy, 2 Wonder'girls' ...if I include Donna here ....., tempest, and NW and Robin ....and did this with ease). Thus it shows Superman is intelligent enough when it comes to matters of science and engineering.
Moreover think of his current fortress of solitudes (plural) ....like the one he built in the jungle. The darn thing is science-central, and not just earth science but other stuff (like the levitating rocks):

(please log in to view the image)

Superman is not written as he used to be when it comes to his intellect, but he is still insanely intelligent (it is just that after his pre-crisis showings they started to pale most of his powers, and the one that took the greatest hit in my opinion are showings of his intellect). Nonetheless Superman is very intelligent.

And if I could think of such a scenario then a comicbook character like Superman, who tinkers at the level that he does, would certainly think of something similar.

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Originally posted by spetznaz
Finally it is my team that has a perfect Nash equilibrum. This is because my stratagem doesn't depend on what the other team is doing. There is no incentive for me to alter my plan.
However your plan is basically a focused tactic to negate mine, which means it is dependent on factors that are reactory in nature.
In game theory your plan is an inferior plan (not inferior due to you ....that is what it is actually called. LOL. I am not calling your plan inferior ....hey, I try to avoid misunderstandings).
Moreover your plan is dependent on your characters knowing exactly what mine will do.

Now, you have a pretty powerful telepath (cable) ....actually green lanterns do have SOME telepathy.
But my team will be going too fast for that, and mroeover i have a telepath to play cover if needed (though i doubt that will be necessary).

Anyways, in game theory my plan is sufficient in and of itself. Your plan is a direct countermeasure to mine.
I have the optimal NE here.

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Originally posted by batdude123
^^^...

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Originally posted by spetznaz
Sorry ....I was kind of tied up elsewhere.

your question was why wouldn't Hal be able to just contain the darn thing. Good question ....I have a comic (one of the JLA 1 million series) where Kyle contains an exploding Solaris (a living sun) ....although he did have some help from Superman one million (who has 'force vision'). Anyways, he strained to do so ....but he did do it.

Thus Hal should be able to do such a thing, and if he can then he should be able to contain what I am talking about.
Right?

Well ....obviously I will argue not.

Think of it this way ......what is easier to lift?
A 70 pound weight the size and shape of an X-box sized box, or a 50 pound weight that is the size of a car (let's say it is made out of cardboard)?
The latter will be harder to lift and carry, even though it is lighter. Why .....because it is far bulkier than the former case.
What does this have to do with anything?

It is one thing to try and contain something, and it is another thing altogether to try and contain it while you are on it and it is turning to flaming plasma all around you.

Visualize yourself having a power ring, and all around you the earth is going gaseous and aflame.
Now imagine another scenario where you are in space, and you can see the whole earth in front of you, and the same thing is happening.

In the former case you do not have enough perspective to even know the extent of what is going on .....but in the latter case you can see the entire picture and might have a chance (and presence of mind as well as vantage point) to do something.

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Originally posted by spetznaz
Sorry ....I was kind of tied up elsewhere.

your question was why wouldn't Hal be able to just contain the darn thing. Good question ....I have a comic (one of the JLA 1 million series) where Kyle contains an exploding Solaris (a living sun) ....although he did have some help from Superman one million (who has 'force vision'). Anyways, he strained to do so ....but he did do it.

Thus Hal should be able to do such a thing, and if he can then he should be able to contain what I am talking about.
Right?

Well ....obviously I will argue not.

Think of it this way ......what is easier to lift?
A 70 pound weight the size and shape of an X-box sized box, or a 50 pound weight that is the size of a car (let's say it is made out of cardboard)?
The latter will be harder to lift and carry, even though it is lighter. Why .....because it is far bulkier than the former case.
What does this have to do with anything?

It is one thing to try and contain something, and it is another thing altogether to try and contain it while you are on it and it is turning to flaming plasma all around you.

Visualize yourself having a power ring, and all around you the earth is going gaseous and aflame.
Now imagine another scenario where you are in space, and you can see the whole earth in front of you, and the same thing is happening.

In the former case you do not have enough perspective to even know the extent of what is going on .....but in the latter case you can see the entire picture and might have a chance (and presence of mind as well as vantage point) to do something.

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Originally posted by spetznaz
Funny thread, but I’ll bite. LOL.

Alright, you’ve given me the following characters:

- Superman
- Magneto
- IceMan
- Human torch
- Jean Gray

In essence a pretty powerful bunch.
However ‘my’ team is facing a pretty powerful bunch of characters, ranging from arguably the most powerful Green Lantern, a Norse deity, and a high level psionic, plus an energy absorber and Magma.

So how could my team do it?
Well, they could try the force versus force approach, whereby a member of my team faces an opposing member from the other team (and arguably my team can be able to pull a win that way, although it would be a hard fight and open to too much debate).

My team could also opt for the ‘tried and true’ approach. For instance it would be as simple as having Superman blitz Cable first, then several picaseconds later take out Bishop and Magma; thus leaving Hal Jordan and Thor for the rest of my team to pile on.
But that is too linear.

Thus I’d have my team take an unorthodox approach, and not only that but one that is a tad bit harder than the ‘tried and true approach.’ Moreover this methodology would lead to the potential destruction of the solar system.
Furthermore my plan would have all but one of my team perishing, as well as the entire population of this planet, plus killing any members of the other team that did not have Hal Jordan whisk them out to the next galaxy pronto!

Weird plan …..but as long as one of my members is present in the vicinity that was once earth, and as long as the other members cannot come back, I technically win.
No opposition left!

Anyways, here’s my plan:

I would have Superman whisk all of my team to the magnetic north pole of the earth, which he should be able to do in a second or two at the most.
Once there I would have Magneto levitate up to a height of 20 feet, and then extend his most powerful magnetic field in a semi-circle below him (and he would tap into the magnetic field of the earth as an augmentation to his own power, in much the same way he tapped into the earth’s magnetic field to create a planet-wide EMP surge in that comic where he basically knocked out every single electric/electronic device in the world in an instant).
Anyways, Erick is unleashing the most powerful magnetic field he has ever created beneath him ….as well as around him.

At this point the Torch goes supernova! Why? For no reason apart from creating nice fireworks.

Immediately below him, encircled by the field (say at a radius of 20 feet as well ….has to be tight) stand Jean Grey and IceMan facing each other.
IceMan opens his mind to Jean Grey, and she untaps his raw potential ….think of it as the most potent form of biofeedback training imaginable ….a ‘quasi-peptalk’ by one of the most powerful telepaths around.
Bobby goes insane and immediately drops the temperature within the magnetic field to absolute zero, in other words zero Kelvin. Obviously Jean Grey is dead now.

What just happened within the magnetic sphere?
What happened is that the characteristics necessary for the Meissner-Ochsenfeld effect were just created, and hence one of the requirements of a superconductor just fell into place.

At this point (say 15 seconds after Jean Grey triggered the ‘IceMan event’) Superman starts to fly around Magneto (who, remember, is levitating 20 feet above the ground and exerting the most powerful magnetic field in his life).
Superman starts to travel at a speed that is a sliver away from lightspeed in a perfect circle around the magnetic field. At such speeds he’d probably need 2 or 3 circles around Magneto’s field for what I plan to take effect.

What just happened outside of the magnetic sphere?
The most powerful electromagnet in the world was created, and due to the M-O effect beneath Magneto’s field this effect is even further enhanced.

Meaning of this?

Well, huge electrical surges are created. The most powerful accelerator on earth (at CERN in Geneva Switzerland) has been able to produce 100 billion electron volts of energy (due to collusions inside, but this were extremely small and instantaneous). 100 billion electron volts is equal to a temperature of a 1,000 trillion degrees.
This was the temperature of the universe when it was 10-12 seconds old.

My version will create far more temperature than this, and thus the heat produced will be greater than that produced at the CERN accelerator (plus it will last for longer, and not be due to the collusions of sub-atomic particles).

If the heat is intense enough, it will be at the level that the universe was at 10-10 seconds after the universe was created.

At that point, and that temperature, the four forces that exist are now three (the electromagnetic force has joined with the weak force, and then there is the strong force and gravity).

Two things might occur:

Option 1:
Magneto will have progressed far beyond the control of mere magnetism into wielding all 4 forces ….or in this case all 3. He will be a walking singularity.
Anyone facing him is toast.
You are looking at someone at the level of classic Beyonder now.

Option 2 (my favorite):
At such temperatures things are so hot that the strong force can barely hold together a proton and a neutron. In other words hydrogen (the strong force could also be able to bring a proton and 2 neutrons to form the nucleus of ‘heavy’ hydrogen).
Anyways, that will be the only element existing all around, and with the intense temperatures solar ignition will occur.
Guess who will be left at the heart of this ‘new’ sun ……Superman.
Guess what happens when Superman is in the midst of such a sun?

Conclusion:
My entire team (apart from 2 people in option one – Magneto and Superman, or one person in option 2 – Superman) is annihilated.
The entire earth is gone.
The moon is gone.
Every single person is gone.
My opposing team is gone (if it remained on earth for the last 30 seconds or so), or if Hal took them beyond our solar system, they cannot return.

If they return they will face either Magneto (in his current form it might as well be the Beyonder), or they will face Superman at the heart of his own sun.
They come ....they die.
They stay away ....the lose.

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Originally posted by grey fox
Ok i didn't understand all of that i think i kinda get it.

Magneto gives himself a power boost by slotting himself within the earths magnetic field , he has Bobby lower the temperature (this is the second part of the Electromagnet creation i think ?) supes then loops around a few times finally finishing it causing magneto to

A. fry the earth with a shit-load of electricity (The heat of creation...that owns the force of a white dwarf star ...looks like Flash writers are going to need flashier sounding words)

B. Merge with all the elements present and become a godlike entity

C. create a sun within which supes shall sun-dip

Tell me if i'm wrong, Molecules and Magnets aren't my strong points....

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Originally posted by TheKahn
Oh, sorry I must have misunderstood you.



Yea, that could very easily be argued based on other examples. My point was only that nothing in his power set would explain him transcending his physical body (as opposed to Franklin who can manipulate reality and Jean who is connected to the fundamental creative force of the MU). I.e. if you turn the earth into a star he would still die from a lack of oxygen no matter how powerful he became.



Fair enough.



Very interesting. Well my first question would be who on your team is a nuclear physicist? Such a think might be possible but how would your team know how to do it?

Also what would protect Superman from having his body affected by either the temperature (ie turn into hydrogen) or dieing from the massive explosion that would result from your plan, as we are talking about an explosion far greater than a nuclear bomb. From what I know of his bio-aura, the reason he is able to approach the sun is that as he gets closer his body absorbs more yellow sunlight. This increases the strength of his aura which in turn enables him to get even close in a loop-type effect. However, the aura can be overloaded with either high level energy or kinetic attacks and what you are proposing could safely be called both. His aura wouldn't have the time it needs to strengthen itself to the necessary level.




Good point. So perhaps the composition and temperature of the Earth/star would wield greater influence over the type of star as opposed to mass? That is certainly possible (in the confines of this debate it may not be possible to know for sure either way).

If we assume that your plan would work, two problems still remain. One is that the Earth/star would still not have enough gravitational pull to hold itself together. The thermonuclear reaction would reach a point where the force it produces would exceed the ability of the planet to hold it's mass in. The second is that you are not starting your reaction at the core of the planet. So gravity (or any other force for that matter) would not be forcing hydrogen gas into your makeshift reactor to fuel it as it does in a star. The initial explosion would actually force hydrogen away from you instead of to you.





You forgot to explain in there exactly how you are going to compress the mass of the Earth/star . It might be possible but I don't think your team is up to matter manipulation (either being physically able to or knowing how) when all except Superman are going to die very shorty in your plan.

And the rules say that I can't leave the "field of combat". Going into space above the planet isn't leaving the field of combat as your team could easily follow and continue the fight thereby making it a field where we are engaged in combat (it's not like my team would be trying to excape). Besides Hal would be able to easily protect my team if they decide to stay on the planet.

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Originally posted by spetznaz
LEt me try to answer your questions:

First of all who in my team is a nuclear physicist?
Well ....let me say that in Pre-Crisis times Superman was a unltra-genius. He could whip up thingimajigs that would make Reed Richards cry foul!
In modern times Superman is not written as having that same type of insane intellect (although in All Star Superman he has even gone beyond his former intellect into new levels), but Kal El is still extremely intelligent. It is just not shown as often or to the same scale as it used to be shown when he was shiving moons about.

However he is still very intelligent.
Think of his fortress of Solitude.
Think of his Superman robots ....which he himself built to such high levels that they are extremely powerful and capable (one such Superman robot took out the Titans and Young Justice, and in the process killed Donna Troi and some other person, and messed up the other members of the two teams ....including 2 flashes, Superboy, 2 Wonder'girls' ...if I include Donna here ....., tempest, and NW and Robin ....and did this with ease). Thus it shows Superman is intelligent enough when it comes to matters of science and engineering.
Moreover think of his current fortress of solitudes (plural) ....like the one he built in the jungle. The darn thing is science-central, and not just earth science but other stuff (like the levitating rocks):

(please log in to view the image)

Superman is not written as he used to be when it comes to his intellect, but he is still insanely intelligent (it is just that after his pre-crisis showings they started to pale most of his powers, and the one that took the greatest hit in my opinion are showings of his intellect). Nonetheless Superman is very intelligent.

And if I could think of such a scenario then a comicbook character like Superman, who tinkers at the level that he does, would certainly think of something similar.

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Originally posted by spetznaz
BTW .....I still don't understand how your team would know what I was up to to the extent that they are 'porting Magma to the center of the earth. Your team would actually have to be either omniscient or precogniscent to even know to try and beat mine to the North pole, or at the very least know exactly what I am going to be doing.

Also how exactly would Magma stop the earth?
More importantly how could she stop the core movement before Superman had gone around Magneto at least several times at light speed?

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Originally posted by spetznaz
Finally it is my team that has a perfect Nash equilibrum. This is because my stratagem doesn't depend on what the other team is doing. There is no incentive for me to alter my plan.
However your plan is basically a focused tactic to negate mine, which means it is dependent on factors that are reactory in nature.
In game theory your plan is an inferior plan (not inferior due to you ....that is what it is actually called. LOL. I am not calling your plan inferior ....hey, I try to avoid misunderstandings).
Moreover your plan is dependent on your characters knowing exactly what mine will do.

Now, you have a pretty powerful telepath (cable) ....actually green lanterns do have SOME telepathy.
But my team will be going too fast for that, and mroeover i have a telepath to play cover if needed (though i doubt that will be necessary).

Anyways, in game theory my plan is sufficient in and of itself. Your plan is a direct countermeasure to mine.
I have the optimal NE here.

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Originally posted by TheKahn
Damnit! I accidentally forgot to separate one of my responses from your quote I was addressing.

Here it is:
"Well Bishop, Cable, and Magma are all from the Marvel Universe, so when Hal detects Superman moving at super speed towards the North Pole in the company of Magneto before he stops time, it wouldn't take much to put two and two together. Especially when Magneto has messed with the planet's magnetic field before."

As to your other question remember that Superman would have to actually reveal his plan to your team. This will take some time and a good bit of convincing as nearly all of them will die in the attempt . Magma's power is to control rock and lava. What I'm am suggesting she do is stop the core of the earth from spinning. She could increase the pressure/friction on the core from the surrounding rocks. Now I know this is a lot for her to do but she would have gone over this action numerous times before (thanks to Cable) and would be operating at her max potential.