For starters you have no idea if teleporting solid mass into a solid mass would make the first one form solid in the second of vise versa. This can only be answered by demonstration. Full height, including he curved part above the circle, is around 2.6x the portion of circle the lorry matches up to. The lorry is barely half the width and length at the top, and larger at the bottom. Glass, ornaments, mosaics and such are added to the outside, not the inside. You realizes the generosity of allowing your assumption of it being a shell right? I'm allowing for less than 1/5th of the full weight and now ya wanna make the density less? Harsh BT, harsh. Guess if we're being picky I could always suggest that flipping < lifting, maybe even say that the obelisk is hollow and use it bouncing up as proof. Both would severely reduce the feat.
That does not mean their mentally fighting anything, or aware of what Kain is doing. Its just a gameplay mechanic, can you show me the actual video where it says aggressive people cannot be charmed? Only 25x the area of Raziel's two points, less with Pillow Talk.
Thats not the area. To get the sword area thats connecting to the body you times the length [2in] by the width [0.04in]. 0.08in2 is the square area that the pressure is spread over. I wouldn't think that quotes like 'weak minded' and 'non-aggressive' are game'mechs.. Description says it doesn't work on aggressive/non-weak minded foes, gameplay shows this has failed to work on non-humans like Vampires(?) and Sarafan. Would like to see clips of it working on foes that are prepared (about to attack Kain) and on non-humans.
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"Gonna need more chloroform..."
"If you look down on us, judge us, condemn us... then you shall fear us!"
Why would it not? why would either masses change? all thats happening is space is being moved/changed, not mass or other variables, Kain can do that, its not like I am saying Kain can teleport inside her body, hes teleporting a part of his weapon that he would intend to be inside her anyway, not that its necessery he could just teleport 1mm away from her or something with the blade at her head. Not really as its a living entity, not a building or an object and the density would be less, I think you underestimate the generosity of me letting it drop that an oil tanker, angel etc can easily take the force bayonetta knocked Temp down with due to the fact the force required to pierce a thin metal piece or damage an oil tanker would be barely tonnes. The obelisk bouncing would not make it hollow, only that the ground it hit was fairly dense as well. I disagree still in the claim that it shows great strength that she knocked him down anyway, as I said all you have to do is break his propulsion, to knock a plane out of the sky you just have to break its engines not defeat the weight of the plane so taking into account the vast amount of evidence suggesting not much actual force was used (oil tanker, angel, speed of tanker and distance of it hitting temp etc) its not "harsh" to belive it being a poor feat, fortitudo imo is better.
Thats not how you get PSI however, pressure does not just stop where an object touches thats why its pounds square inch. What description? I dont remember a description for the power myself, all I know is what Marcus can do and that Kain took that Dark gift which is how it works. The hylden witch can TK, therefore Kain can tk when he takes her gift (shes not a vampire so its not a dark gift ut you get the picture), Sebastion can move very fast, so can Kain after he takes the gift, Faustus has super jump, Magnus has the power to mentally explode things etc. The only indication that Kain cannot mind control an agressor is because you cannot MC actual enemies in the game, only civilions, thats a mechanic like how Kratos cant just pull apart every enemy he comes across. I could probably go through hundreds of games if I had the time and patience explaining how some powers have limits in gameplay due to balance/fun. You wouldnt argue Kains sword as weak and blunt just because he cant slash sarafan in half in gameplay would you?
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Last edited by Burning thought on May 24th, 2011 at 09:17 PM
Because its transporting solid mass into solid mass, his port would need to show the ability of displacing solid material on entrance. Its like Nightcrawler's sense to not to port into things for fear of death. If you mean porting very close to her then thats fine.
Density of marble is just under 2.6, density of a human is 1, density of a hollow 1m thick shell is 0.5. So really what I should be doing is using a mix of human and marble density of 1.7 to give the weight of 35,322 tons. <- 35k is the new number being used unless evidence of it being hollow can be provided aka 20,000raz. Questions gameplay physics like that will get you nowhere, so ya not really letting anything slide more as its not really up for question. Also it appears that no logic was in the conclusion that ''it didnt pierce the metal but it knocked Temp back, so Temp must be hollow and light''. Yep, itd mean that the force of it falling came back into the obelisk on impact and pushed it back up, something it couldn't do if it was that dense. 1) Breaking the propulsion would send him from a stationary position vertically down, not horizontal. The thing is that he wouldnt of been sent flying without the... 2) Newtons First and Third law of motion. No wheres that vast amount of proof?
'Pounds per square inch' In this case pounds being the weight/strength they're at and square inch being the in2 I just showed you. The 'pounds' being 20,000x in Bays favour with the 'square inch' being in 25x in Raz's favour.
''All non-aggressive characters can be charmed with this power.'' ''Allows Kain to control weak-minded humans.'' being that. Besides Marcus's being on a higher level (as he had a much longer time to develop them) theres the thing that not only has Kain not been shown to do so to prove that he can, but afaik Marcus hasn't done so either. Kratos cant rip anything apart in the game, the Reaver cant one-shot a human in the game and Dante cant move at hypersonic in the game, Akuma cant sink an island with a punch in the game... Difference is that we have cutscenes etc that prove that they can do it outside of game'mechs. This has no cutscenes, no showings and statements against it. Aggressive, weak minded and Sarafan 'may' be considered game'mechs, but proof of this is required.
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"Gonna need more chloroform..."
"If you look down on us, judge us, condemn us... then you shall fear us!"
No its not because A: Bayonetta is not solid, shes no more solid than Kain and B: why would it displace? that does not make sense. And he does teleport into things iirc, but this is not Kain teleporting "into" someone its his sword through his aid. It would meet the same end.
Not sure thats correct, just getting a comrpomise betwee nthe two densities, we dony even know its marble and since he simply looks like decoration its not likely, you dont often make a decorative object out of marble, then add outer decoration like stain glass. I am letting it all slide, because I am charitable, you cant just ignore it because it does not fit well for your argument of incredible "strength" doing it, we see first hand the force is not enough to damage one small angel OR an oil tanker. You would just mean Raziels strength to be high enough, the force made by Raziel to launch it over would transfer into the ground as the obelisk falls, it coming back up would mean Raziel put too much force into it, not to mension the shape of an obelisk, the triangle tip may be just righting itself and being pulled back up by the heavier bottom. 1) not if theres an oil tanker knocking into him from the front...the object thats breaking his propulsion is coming from the front of him, hence why he goes backwards, your claim would require it to be above him OR for her to simply "turn" the propulsion off.
The force was equel to send a oil tanker (3-5 tonnes max? I dont know) from a few meters per second to about 10 meters per second, give or take without being too much to buckle/ damage it and the force from Bayonettas hands was not enough to kill the angel which iirc has been killed by less. You would have to calculate that force however since its your argument. Your using Temp but thats wrong, you only need the oil tanker, easier calculation as well since we know how much an oil tanker can weigh. We know that was enough to knock him off from his propulsion and send him the direction the tanker was sent.
I keep asking where are you getting this from? a gamers description because I dont recall it in the game, please show me. Its not about development as Kain has taken the gift directly from Marcus, theres no indication that absorbed gifts go back to their base power level otherwise Kain wouldnt be able to jump at exactly the same distance if not more so than Faustus has shown or would have difficulty Tking small objecets let alone complicated mechnisms from the hylden witch, Marcus' ability is the only one with this illogical limit (thugs from the sewer more protected/wary of metnal attacks than anyone else? ) other than perhaps Magnus' gift which does not allow you destroy all the surfaces in the game like he can wreck stone statues. Your trying to play on gameplay limitations and ignoring the story, how Kain gains powers etc to protect Bay from an easy MC.
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Last edited by Burning thought on May 25th, 2011 at 08:11 AM
...o.o yeah, she is. Humans are solid, water is liquid, air is gas. The basics. How can you teleport mass into mass without displacing the latter so that the former can now occupy that space?
It is, we know its living so not hollow and we know its made of a marble-like stone material. Dude, we dont know 'any' densities in our calcs, its called being sensible. Nah you have to let it slide because its wrong, not by choice. Nope, at that speed, angle and weight a 700 ton block would not bounce. Nor did the bottom part move so that last part makes no sense. Yet it still bounces.. light density and hollow then? What you described is the first&third law; the reason it was launched backwards is because the tanker pushed him. The reason the tanker pushed him is because the angel smacked it with force. The reason the angel smacked it with force is because Bayonetta threw it. You may want to look into Occam's razor as so far I'm stating that; 1) Partly made of stone and something as dense as flesh/water.[visual+assumption] 2) Bay's throw knocked it back.[visual] Your assumptions; 1) Made of a material thats lighter than rock.[assumption] 2) Only some of the 'outer shell'[assumption] is made of that, the rest is even lighter.[assumption] 3) Its probably hollow.[assumption] 4) The throw broke some propulsion system.[assumption]. BR- 2 points, 2 visuals and an assumption. BT- 4 points, 5 assumptions. Youre trying to get Shakespeare from Snoopy..
Thats not how it works. To start the force that makes Temp move back must equal the force that hit him, from a single throw the energy wont suddenly increase. Take it from a guy that actually calcs original feats, you look at what the force of the throw achieved, and thats knocking Temp on his ass. And Occam's razor again, a bad assumption:evidence ratio.
''Crystal Dynamics. Legacy of Kain: Blood Omen 2 manual. pg15 (Eidos Interactive). (2002)'' The creators of the game them self. Its kinda obvious his isn't on the level of Marcus', if it was Kain would not have to focus all his effort and concentration, remain stationary and not being able to move when controlling one mind. If it was the same as Marcus' it would be executed like it. Anyhow, I'd rather see Kain.. even Marcus showing to be able to then accept theories. Evidence/facts > theories w/ proof > theories w/o proof. So would like to see it working on higher minds, non-humans and aggressors.
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"Gonna need more chloroform..."
"If you look down on us, judge us, condemn us... then you shall fear us!"
Only humans are a combination of those things. You act like its a seperate power, if Kain teleports into a space then that space is occupied by him, if an object is already there that changes nothing, in theory theres always an object there even if its gas particles and microbes.
Its not living like a human being is living and if it was its not solid, its not granite block solid is it..we know the densities of a cube of a material, thats how you get the calcs behind granite blocks. Wrong? you look at a game, dont like it as part of your claim so its wrong? The tanker chose the direction, the impact which was only a few tonnes, Tanker from a few m/s to 10+ m/s therefore breaking the limited propulsion. No your stating that; 1) Angels and Petrol tanker durability=bays strength=tens of thousands of tonnes ( illogical assumption, overall impossible), 2) Bays power had to equel Temps weight to send him flying (assumption) 3) the oil tanker has only slightly less weight than temp (illogical assumption), I am assuming its make up exactly the same as you are, theres no way around that since the game does not tell us, most of those "assumptions" that you labeled for me are not assumptions for example its 100% fact Temps propulsion that allows him to fly was defeated otherwise it would not have dropped to the ground, you dont seem to even recognise that Temp has some propulsion/levitation then?
Thats the thing, the energy does not increase...the weight of the tanker is propelled another few meters per second because its sped up, not enough to damage the tanker but enough to send it faster, but not thousands of tonnes fast...the difference is not that much at all tbh. The only calculation you really need i the one that can calculate how much force you need to send a few tonnes of oil tanker going from 10 m/s to 50-100 m/s.
As scenario has shown by the looks of it your reading through either player quotes on the ability rather than the games or an in-game execution, thats like me posting "for Dante to use DT he has to fill his devil gauge and press R1 and L1" (or w/e it was). As I said, gameplay mechanics/balance does not defeat the facts of the game which is that Kain takes the powers of those he absorbs the veins of, in this case Marcus. Why do you want to see it working on "higher" minds when theres not one present?
The first quote is from Dark Chronicle, a source you have used in the past, and one you have repeatedly linked to. The second quote was taken directly from the Blood Omen 2 instruction manual. The other two quotes are from an official strategy guide.
All of them state it only works on non-aggressive or weak minded humans. You have nothing that can dispute this.
I am not disputing the gameplay of the game, but I dont think this is a gameplay fight.....you cant argue using the controls/balance in a game.
Also theres almost nobody Kain fights in these threads that has more than human mental resistance anyway so its completly irrelevent. I have yet to be convinced Bayontetta has a "strong" mind or could defend herself against Kains influence do you?
Well it is if shes got no more feats of resistance than a weak minded human. I dont have feats that shes got any special resistance and the fact shes never faced enemies that get into her head suggest she has no mental resistance or ability to protect herself. You would also need to get a more specific classification of what "weak-minded" is because if you want to use gameplay mechanics, Kain not being able to MC the sewer thugs but able to do so to the aristocracy makes no sense is "intelligence" was how you gauged weak mindedness.
As for weak minded, she was fooled by Balder from the beginning and could not see past his scheme and even I could see the major resemblence between cereza and Bay from the get go.
Can we prove its solid? No. Can we prove its hollow? Even less so. Should we use a half the density to low ball? Sure, and so it was done. Granite? Marble, and I could hardly translate what you said after that O__o If you want to use wrong numbers at least use the correct wrong numbers.. A tanker that size full of gasoline weighs 50 ton. Not that anything you said was correct. 1) Nope, first two haven't even crossed my mind, those are your points.. remember? 2) Newtons laws of motions say hi~ 3) Lol pleeaaaassse quote me saying that the tankers weight is close to Temps, oh please do. <- Well that counter didn't go down so well. So it being hollow is a fact that you can prove? And you have proof saying that the density is light, right? Oh, and here I was thinking that Bay used telekinetic powers to keep Temp up the whole time... What you dont get that Newton says that the only reason Temp moved was due to the force that moved him. Even with your 'propulsion break' theory there would still need to be a large amount of force to send it flying that fast, the numbers you want wouldnt make it move horizontal at all.
No thats the calc you want, and being the logical calc fan that I am I just cant get myself to do faulty maths soz. And stop sharpening occams razor, the sheen is blinding me. Temp was knocked back and the only force to do so was from Bay's throw. Why do you hate simplicity in the opposition? Hm, Raz hits blocks and they slide across the ground... but thats impossible irl right? His fist should have really gone into it like the tanker. And a dense cube doesnt 'slide' across the ground.. so thats more reasons why the rocks are light in LoK. A 200 ton obelisk is easily possible if you want me to nitpick at it. I could make it hollow, make the density lighter and maybe take a 're-look' at it and see if the speed and dimensions are what I originally got all with 'logical assumptions' from the game. Nitpicking is fun...
Prima official guide and the manual written by the BO2 'creators'... You need more? And pray tell, which 'facts of the game' shows it working on aggros, non-weak minded and non-humans? "Do you have anything to suggest that Charm does more than the gameplay or official canon statements say it does? If so, please present it." This is literally the sole question required to prove its not a gameplay mechanic.. actually, the only thing that needs to be answered to end this.
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"Gonna need more chloroform..."
"If you look down on us, judge us, condemn us... then you shall fear us!"
Easy is a point of view...you seen to have staggered on that argument of how dispersing is important.
We cannot prove either of those for certain. I never said I knew the weight of oil tankers, I assume it also depends on the model of tanker also you dont seem to like being in the wrong, you get upset and snarky in your answers, relax 3) you pretty much did by claiming that an oil tanker+the extra speed from Bay>Temp weight, this is not only wrong but unecessery. I never said I had proof of those things, its just fact that he was under propulsion and as I said, you would have thought you were thinking that when you are argueing how me beliving propulsion was defeated was an assumption, when its pretty clear it was otherwise he would still be hovering why would there "have" to be a large amount of force? his propulsion is defeated and 50 tons+motion of about 100 m/s (probably nowhere near it but w/e) was enough to give it direction.
Faulty maths is claiming a oil tanker and a weak angel can take 30k tons of force based on a lack of knowledge of density, your backing behind the calc being "because its sensible".....he pushes them, its different and were using much lower numbers than your 30k+ for temp. Also, snarky, this is not going to convince me of your argument that Temps weight alone was defeated and its nothing to do with breaking his levitation. None of your desperate attempts at covering up the fact your twisting truth around an oil tankers durability and simple "levitation defeat" would make any sense, theres nothing much amiss with Raziels feats compared to Bayonettas.
That did not answer my counter, we know where your getting the gameplay mechanics from, I can look at it now if I wish. So far your counter argument to the argument that Kain can use the powers he took from Marcus to mind control bay is a hastily drawn conclusion based on some game mechanics. Your only real argument so far is to argue Kain is weaker to marcus due to the way he stands to "use" the ability.....
Youve not yet even attempted to argue how Bay has resistance or any mental strength beyond the humans Kain supposedly can only "control". You also bring up the laughable argument that Kain is not so proficient in the Dark gifts use due to Marcus having developed it, laughable because thats young Kain, the Kain bay is fightning now is thousands of years older than Marcus and if you know how vampire gifts work you know they evolve over time so if anything Kain is stronger than anything Marcus is.
Mostly because there are points being brought up that dont need to be. You can probably make an argument about 1 small article that can finish the debate.
or if it goes on forever until its no longer interesting at least it does not take as much time.
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..Wha? Teleport in and occupy a space, to do so you move anything that can be separated away form where its entering. Solid mass doesn't separate. In other words, needs proof.
Exactly, so using the middle ground is the logical choice. Upset? lolno. However I may get snarky when people ignore events with a mass of illogical ideas to discredit the feat just for me to repeat basic things over and over again. (lightning feat for its fullwankery, 15 pages of repetition in different colours with carver and maybe Quanchi's 'portrayals') So sorry if I'm waiting for people to stop ignoring things just so their character can win a debate <-< >-> Nup, force to knock Temp back = Force generated by Bay, its the basic way we gather feats here. Well something that is proven is that he wouldnt have moved that far back at that speed without the necessary force to move that bulk at that speed. [Heck even a 50 ton tanker at 100m/s is a feat 700x that of Raz.... sh'ooo either way it outranks the Reaver's less than 100x cutting advantage.]
Guys who dont get the maths have no leg to stand on. Did my calcs mention those two things? No, those are again your point that are to do with things other than the feat. Im not trying to convince you, I know some people don't like to concede so will instead state the closest things to facts and hope the person can understand. How about a deal then, you accept that the her best feat is the tanker and I accept that the obelisk weights 200 tons based on light density, hollow parts etc? Loving the 'upset' 'desperate' and ' twisting' remarks when its only after I get the figures that there must be a fault with it. Like how the weight of Temp was in high demand until there was no way for it to get lighter so other reasons had to be made.
Look, not matter how much you try to reduce this feat its still going to be between hundreds to thousands times the strength of Raziel thus more damage then what he can do with the Reaver. Seeing why not just agree with my middle ground 35k tons or low-ball/shell 10k tons.
Yeah I'll get round to that when you answer the question and provide evidence. Please don't avoid it in the next post
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"Gonna need more chloroform..."
"If you look down on us, judge us, condemn us... then you shall fear us!"
So, again, you have no proof of Kain affecting average minded or aggressive people with Charm? Further, you want us to prove than aggressor to Kain will not be affected, despite the fact that we already did this? The quote says non-aggressive people or those whose minds are specifically noted to be weak. Bayonetta is neither of these things.
Of course solid mass seperates, it just takes greater temperature or more force and Kain has the force by far, you would only have grounds to say he cannot if bayonetta had ridiculous durability.
Exactly your snarky and no not really, finding a compramise is better. Yes I get annoyed when people "ignore" events....like piecies of a game/feat they dont like see what I am getting at? do you ever wonder if your ignoring things and annoying people the way your annoyed by them? how do you know? we dont "really" know his weight, only the deductions from "sensible" (in your opinion) math (made by you) but from what we actually see it only requires the force equel to a speeding oil tanker to knock him down.
Heres my math for you to pick apart on the trucks movement+energy, rough numbers used since we dont know all of the numbers but I got the weight of a filled truck from answerbag, I justified the distance by looking at the truck at its furthest from Temp in the vid and use dits own length/dimensions (also from answer bag of a large truck like our one here) to estimate its distance from temp:
She has nothing to damage Kain with.
I have avoided nothing, you keep trying to use quotes from gameplay balance to claim Kain cannot do something, which is ridiculous since a lot of game characters cannot do feats in gameplay that their capable of. Evidence suggests Kain gains the power of those he absorbs, your claim earlier was that Kain was not as developed as marcus, well the Kain in this thread is thousands of years more evolved than marcus since he gained this power not that I belive you had a case before. as I said, I dont need to provide evidence of how incredible Kain is at mind control if his target has no real mental protection.
Edit: Looking back I realise you had already calculated Bayonettas swords area, and had the weight of the tanker at about the same. jolly good show.
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Last edited by Burning thought on May 25th, 2011 at 07:43 PM
Nothing to do with teleporting. How can physical force be counted in teportation?
Seeing as I'd rather take the simpler options, the kind of feat that we use here all the time, than a complex one requiring more assumptions. So no, not ignoring, its doing what we always for. Well... don't really care about peoples opinions in a debate so who cares. Only thing is the topic, where I follow the simple, logical and most likely for the verse. Not like anyone else was gonna get the weight, which is the only thing in question.
Well thats if we go and assume that she doesn't have the strength to move Temp. Though personally Id use the results that Occam and Newton suggest. Also find it odd how you give her a strength 60x Raz' while her area is 25x his yet its classed as a inferior feat. While we're here, did you give an answer about Kains durability as Raziel was able to rip into his chest? Because the place the Reaver cut didnt cause the entry wound of his fist/claws, so it was all Raziel.
Official quotes say he cant, gameplay says he cant, no scene or anything else says he can besides what you think he can do.. so yeah, gonna need some evidence as so far all we've had is opinions. A cutscene would be nice.
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"Gonna need more chloroform..."
"If you look down on us, judge us, condemn us... then you shall fear us!"
KMC Community Forums
May 24th, 2011 08:42 PM
) other than perhaps Magnus' gift which does not allow you destroy all the surfaces in the game like he can wreck stone statues. Your trying to play on gameplay limitations and ignoring the story, how Kain gains powers etc to protect Bay from an easy MC.
The tanker chose the direction, the impact which was only a few tonnes, Tanker from a few m/s to 10+ m/s therefore breaking the limited propulsion. No your stating that; 1) Angels and Petrol tanker durability=bays strength=tens of thousands of tonnes ( illogical assumption, overall impossible), 2) Bays power had to equel Temps weight to send him flying (assumption) 3) the oil tanker has only slightly less weight than temp (illogical assumption), I am assuming its make up exactly the same as you are, theres no way around that since the game does not tell us, most of those "assumptions" that you labeled for me are not assumptions for example its 100% fact Temps propulsion that allows him to fly was defeated otherwise it would not have dropped to the ground, you dont seem to even recognise that Temp has some propulsion/levitation then?
soz. And stop sharpening occams razor, the sheen is blinding me. Temp was knocked back and the only force to do so was from Bay's throw. Why do you hate simplicity in the opposition? Hm, Raz hits blocks and they slide across the ground... but thats impossible irl right? His fist should have really gone into it like the tanker. And a dense cube doesnt 'slide' across the ground.. so thats more reasons why the rocks are light in LoK. A 200 ton obelisk is easily possible if you want me to nitpick at it. I could make it hollow, make the density lighter and maybe take a 're-look' at it and see if the speed and dimensions are what I originally got all with 'logical assumptions' from the game. Nitpicking is fun...
3) you pretty much did by claiming that an oil tanker+the extra speed from Bay>Temp weight, this is not only wrong but unecessery. I never said I had proof of those things, its just fact that he was under propulsion and as I said, you would have thought you were thinking that when you are argueing how me beliving propulsion was defeated was an assumption, when its pretty clear it was otherwise he would still be hovering 
why would there "have" to be a large amount of force? his propulsion is defeated and 50 tons+motion of about 100 m/s (probably nowhere near it but w/e) was enough to give it direction.
