Then define battle for me then.. You're claiming that it wasn't sparring.. and use the term "battle" TRYING to suggest that it was more than sparring.. Okay.. then more than sparring would be a REAL fight... So then, WHEN and WHY would Yoda and Mace being fighting a REAL fight were somebody could get killed or die? They wouldn't!! Thus, it must've been a sparring session and nothing more. I'm not sure how such plain deductions in logic isn't possible here.
He was trying to imply they were more than sparring sessions... by hanging on to the term "battle" Yet we all know Yoda and Mace have never, nor would they ever fight a real fight where somebody could get hurt or killed. That has never occured. If it has.. please post when and the circumstances of it.
The only quote I can recall from Dark Rendezvous that would even be pertinent to this discussion was during Dooku's battle with Yoda: "Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been [Dooku's] equal on neutral ground."
...But that quote was before RotS-- before we saw Mace fully immerse himself in Vaapad like never before. If he fully embraced Vaapad in that manner against Dooku, he[Dooku] would lose, imo.
"Mm. Thinking of students, I am. Best then I should go to battle with him in whom the Force is strongest, hmm? With young Skywalker; think you?"
"He's not polished," Ilena said.
"And too impulsive," Mace added.
"Hm." Yoda stirred again with his stick. "Then best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force?" He nodded. "Best of all, Dooku would be!"
His eyes found the other Jedi, one by one: and one by one, they looked away.
"Our great student!" Yoda's ears flexed, then drooped. "Our great failure."
Still waiting for when Mace "battled" Yoda.. when and where did this happen and under what circumstances were they trying to hurt one another. Or concede it wasn't a true battle and most likely sparring.
Will you cut that out. Jedi always fight to disarm. They could have had a heated battle with the intent to defeat each other not kill each other.
Also, up until the latter end of the PT, duelist like Yoda and Mace didn't really have much "battle" experience until the Clone Wars, and yet the Jedi Order during this era is considered the strongest, and produced the greatest blademasters the Old Jedi Order would ever see.
He may have been the greatest Jedi student, but who cares?
Here were are essentially talking about Mace/Vaapad vs. a dark side user-- and if Mace was able to use Vaapad to out-duel and "overpower" an opponent superior to Dooku, then Dooku himself shouldn't be a huge problem.
No limits fallacy. Unlike Sidious, Dooku is well aware of Mace's Vaapad. And Mace powered up by Sidious' force powers is going to be way different than Mace powered up by Dooku's.
Here's the difference, the difference between Dooku's swordsmanship and his force powers is way less than the gap between Sidious's swordsmanship and force powers.
The amp Mace gets will be less, but he will be fighting an opponent nearly as deadly with a blade.
Incorrect... If such a disarming battle took place it WOULDN'T BE WITH LIGHTSABERS.. As we know.. a MERE touching of a lightsaber would cause death or dismembering. Most likely any such "heated" battle would be with something other than a saber. Point is, there is ZERO evidence or reason to believe Yoda and Mace got into a heated battle with sabers. That makes ZERO logical sense. Many time disarming in battles means SOMEBODY LOSSES THEIR LIMBS... i.e. Anakin.. Luke.. Vader.. ETC ETC... So.. now that we've established it wasn't a true battle with sabers nor a life or death situation.. what are we left with.. A SPARRING MATCH... Big WHOOP
No. The quote ''perhaps only Mace Windu is his equal on neutral ground'' is mid-CW; at this point Mace has already developed. Same goes for Dooku surviving the fight against Mace and Kenobi TCW: Republic Heroes, for Mace and Dooku stalemating in Obsession. Mace used Vaapad in all these scenarios.
Palpatine has been aware of Vaapad since Shatterpoint, at the very least: "Vaapad?" Palpatine repeated, eventually. Perhaps he'd grown tired of waiting for someone to explain. "Isn't that some kind of animal?"
"A predator of Sarapin," Yoda supplied gravely. "Also the nickname it is, given by students, for the seventh form of lightsaber combat."
"Hmp. I've always heard there are only six."
"Six there were, for generations of Jedi. The seventh... is not well known. A powerful form it is. Deadliest of all... But dangerous it is-to its master, as well as its opponent. Few have studied. One student alone to mastery has risen."
"But if she's the only master-and this style is so deadly-what makes you think-"
"She's not the only master, sir." Mace lifted his head to meet Palpatine's frown. "She is my only student to become a master."
"Your only student..." Palpatine echoed.
"I didn't study Vaapad." Mace let his hands fall to his sides. "I created it."
Palpatine's brows drew together thoughtfully. "Yes, I seem to recall now: a reference in your report on the treason of Master Sora Bulq. Didn't you train him as well? Didn't he also claim to be a master of this Vaapad of yours?"
"Sora Bulq was not my student." "And he did not master Vaapad," Mace said grimly. "Vaapad mastered him."
"Ah-ah, I see..."
---
So not only did Palpatine know of Vaapad, but he knew that Mace both created, and was the master of, said form.
Vaapad doesn't channel 'force powers', it channels an opponents inner darkness/the dark side-- and Dooku has that en gros. Yoda's comment during AotC was certainly indicative of such: "Powerful you have become my old Padawan... The dark side I sense in you."
I can also post some quotes from DR if need be. /shrug
It's NOT A REAL SABER... Thus it's NOT the SAME THING. What is so hard to understand about this. A life and death battle with REAL sabers looks A LOT different and feels different. Not sure what isn't computing here. Stop trying to say Dooku is superior to Windu based on sparring matched before Mace was in his prime like in ROTS.
Honestly, DP do you believe Mace and Yoda would have a TRUE battle? I mean honestly? Is that how desperate we are getting here. They never would engage in such a battle. Further, when you're pissed and going all out with a saber is much different than trying hard with a toy sword. Mace.. not pissed wouldn't be able to rely on the anger and DS inside him.. as he has no ill will towards yoda. I mean common this is 1=1 =2 . Him sparring with Dooku and Yoda /= real life sword fight to the death against somebody you're pissed at. HUGE HUGE difference.
It's unlikley to be on the level of Palpatine's though.
It's just one event out of several that would suggest a level of competitiveness/parity between Dooku and Mace.
No one is suggesting Dooku > Mace because of that sparring match. End of the day if Mace is so much greater than Dooku like you suggest than it's unlikely Dooku would beat him even in a sparring contest.
Last edited by Darth Thor on Mar 25th, 2013 at 06:39 PM
Mar 25th, 2013 04:30 PM
