Mace has so much more experience than vader, he was on the council before anakin was even born. Mace is a legendary force user, and if Vader had not been BBQ'd, than he would have BECOME more powerfull than mace in the force. Vader is a half robot who breathes through metal lungs, eats through wires, and connects a metal tube to his ass in order to take a crap. When he became like this, he lost almost half of his force powers, and your saying hes more powerfull than a Human Jedi, with all limbs attatched, at his prime age, and who has legendary mastery of the force?
think again, but dont work yourself too hard, it might be a hazard.
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Oh my.
Lucas said that Vader as he appears in the OT is about 80 % as powerful as Sidious is. Well. Do you consider that ROTS Sidious is less than 80 % as powerful as Sidious in the OT? I doubt that. And Mace defeated ROTS Sidious.
Technically there isn't much that Vader could do to Mace Windu that ROTS Sidious was not capable of doing. To be precise: There is nothing Vader could do that ROTS Sidious wasn't capable off. The only thing you could possible argue that Vader is better with a lightsaber than ROTS Sidious (and I would even doubt that given his suit has greatly affected his speed and his dexterity).
Bottom line: It's far more likely that Mace will defeat Vader than vice versa because Mace is apparently not a slough when it comes to force powers and I doubt that I have to elaborate on his saber abilities once again. If he can defeat RotS Sidious I don't see how ANH Vader should be able to beat him.
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EDIT\
@ Borbarad, the quote of vader being 80% of sidious came from according to TFN.net, empire of dreams which means that it was referring to sidious in the original trilogy
@Darth_noob
Vader didn't lose his strength in the force or his force powers, he only lost much of his potential
We do not know about the Light Saber Form that Revan uses when he wields a single Light Saber, though it might be a modified one. But he also was proficient in using Jar Kai combat style.
Now to understand that how good Revan was, we should look at the case of Jedi Master Kavar.
Kavar was said to have mastered several Light Saber Forms including Djem So and Juyo. He was the leader of Jedi Guardian faction in his time. Yet he was unable to overcome Malak in a saber duel. And Malak was in turn defeated by Revan in a duel involving Light Sabers.
So we do have an idea that how good was Revan. No one was able to defeat him in any form of combat in his time.
Assumptions can be wrong.
OT Vader is not as good in dueling as you make it sound to be. To be fair! I doubt that he will be able to contend with Revan in a saber duel.
Provided that we already know that Revan was adept at Saber dueling and was labelled as a prodigy. And a person is not called a prodigy, unless he has shown oustanding prowess in the battle.
And add to this another factor, which is that the OT Vader is limited by his mechanical suit. While Revan has no such limitations and he can use his strong connection with the Force to further boost or augment his speed and dexterity.
And yet it is speculated that Obi-Wan defeated Anakin because he had more experience and got the higher ground.
His experience and patience paid well against Anakin.
I know that experience is not everything but it does matters.
And one of the reasons that Dooku was overcome by Anakin easily is because of the Saber Form of his choice; Makashi, which did not proved to be highly effective against Djem So.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Dec 6th, 2007 at 08:49 AM
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But since you brought up the issue that revan uses jar kai i will concede vader beating revan issue seeing that vader gets beaten badly by an experienced jar kai user.
And hadn't we settled in the malak vs vader thread that vader would beat malak in a saber duel though not easy? Im not saying vader is going to beat revan or anything but at the least contend with him then go down.
Oh but he is, being stated that he fights in a lightsaber form that is extremely unpredictable which makes it very dangerous as well as for him to merge several lightsaber forms into a singular modified form pretty much takes skill.
My point: Vader's not going to get owned like you imply
I believe he CAN contend to revan, but might lose or vice versa because it IS debatable weather vader can beat revan in a pure saber duel. We simply have enough evidence to put vader to at the least contend with revan in a saber duel, your making it as if vader gets tooled easily.
My point: Vader's not going to get owned like you imply
Anakin skywalker was also stated to be a prodigy, yet even despite being in the suit he still shows remarkable skills with the lightsaber such as throwing it a distance of 100 feet to slice fang zhar in an aircraft which was already airborne, or the fact that he was evenly matched with darth maul whom has been described as a very good saber duelist until of course maul altered his lightsaber form.
My point: Vader's not going to get owned like you imply but still lose
And vader can't do the same? Despite vaders limitations he has fought opponents like the dark lady and maul whom had no limitations and were still able to contend with them, that alone shows vader DOES have skill in saber dueling despite the fact he is limited due to the suit.
The real point is vader CAN last against revan, weather he loses or not
Key word speculated. I can give you the quote if asked, but the ROTS novel stated obi wan knew the way anakin fought, he knew anakin head to toe, they have been in thousands of sparring matchs hence it was why obi wan was able to put up for so long.
Experience with fighting agaisnt anakin.
Can you find a source to prove that? Because the novel stated that count dooku's skills, mastery and experience could not contend with anakins skills.
Really, if djem so alone could defeat makashi as you imply, then how come AOTC anakin got easily tooled by dooku?
Since when djem so > makashi? Find a credible source to put this out
It is good to see that you now listen with patience!
I can agree that Vader can contend with Revan.
Yes! Vader has always been a skilled swordsman.
I never said that Vader would get owned. He will surely put up a good fight.
I realize that I did not used the right word in my previous post to explain my point but I will do that now.
Vader can contend with Revan but Revan will win after a hard struggle.
I have never doubted Vader's skill with a Light Saber.
Fine!
No! Djem So alone is the factor here. In AOTC, Vader was a padawan and he used a Saber combat style in which he was not proficient against Dooku.
In short; Anakin used Jar Kai against Dooku but was defeated because he had not masteredJar Kai.
Djem So works well for aggressive fighters and Anakin eventually was one and he mastered this form to possibly its highest degree.
As far as Makashi is concerned, even though it is considered to be good for Light Saber dueling, very few people have taken interest in it because it does have a weakness. That weakness was revealed when Anakin used a Djem So against him with great efficiency.
Check this information:
But the greatest flaw with this system of combat was that it could not withstand strikes from later styles which emphasized more powerful strokes over Makashi's elegance and precision. As shown during Dooku's fatal duel with Anakin that Makashi simply did not generate the necessary kinetic energy to meet Djem So (Skywalker's preferred style) on an even footing. The sheer raw power of Form V wore down Dooku's defenses, physically exhausting him and draining his reserves of Force power.
Registered: May 2005
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Yes. He was. I know that. The question is if RotS Sidious = at least 80 % of RotJ Sidious = ANH Vader. Got my line of thought now?
I simply doubt that Vader has become equally powerful or more powerful compared to how powerful Sidious was in the PT. So he wouldn't be able to overcome Mace using the force since RotS Sidious was unable to do that. And I really doubt that he would be able to outduel Mace "Mr Vaapad" Windu in a lightsaber fight.
So I'd really like to know how ANH Vader should win this...
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Well ROTJ sidious is way more powerful than his ROTS incarnation, in empire betrayels he instantly kills 100 storm troopers with one blast of lightning while diverting the lightning from killing his own men, the same lightning which reduced 3 sith acolytes to bones in one hit. With vader because 4/5 as powerful as this sidious would likely mean that vader is powerful as of that state
Sidious is obviously much stronger in the force by the OT seeing that he has countless archives and has a museum which stores several sith and jedi holocrons.
But yes i do get your line of thought, and im not sure if he is but that doesn't mean he would go down at mace easily because in the duel between palpatine and mace windu, i have not seen palpatine using the force mid way during the duel, which vader has been shown to do on several occasions.
Firstly theres no way vader would ever contend mace in a saber duel, i will agree here that he doesn't just get beaten, he gets owned due to shatterpoint which allows mace to see a flaw in vaders techniques.
Regarding the issue where palpatine was unable to use the force against mace windu, well there are several factors to consider, Ill list them here.
He had not use the force until he got struck down by mace windu
Im sure he has not used the force or lightsaber in a way which attacks or kills his opponents for 13 years, and that would mean his skills got rusty.
And im sure its safe to assume that sidious as of ROTS lacks the immense knowledge he has as of ROTJ and Dark empire.
The only attack i saw palpatine use was lightning against mace, and that was after he got beaten and lightning is an attack where it can be blocked by a lightsaber, i don't see how a telekenetical power can be deflected by vaapad the same way it can to lightning.
Well there are several feats that he had accomplished with the force.
Firstly i would like to bring the issue regarding what happened to him when he got into the suit as of ROTS, im sure many of us should realise that only his potential was lost, his connection to the force and strength was still there.
He destroyed the emperors medical room in a fit of rage despite being in the suit for like a few minutes.
During the attack on the jedi temple before the suit, he lifts up a 3 storey statue and sent it flying at the council doors, I remember him taking down a tree larger than the pillar dooku took down as well as dismantling an entire bridge with the force and using the dismantled objects as shrapnel to inflict damage on roan shryne.
Now iv agreed mace would own vader in a saber fight and likely an all out fight, but in a strictly force fight, it can go either way because i have acknowledge very remarkable feats that mace windu has done.
However it wouldn't be easy for either of them to be the victor
Last edited by BoratBorat on Dec 6th, 2007 at 12:23 PM
As far as anything power related goes, force potential is the only branch that can be absolutely quantified (thanks to midi-chlorians), meaning that's the only branch of power that the 80% can refer to and make sense at the same time, and while that speaks a lot for his connection to the force, Sidious has him beat by miles in force knowledge and general experience, and as far as we can tell, pure hatred and anger, as well as willpower.
Mace Windu's force showings are miles above Vader's, and he has two particular advantages: Vaapad and Shatterpoint, which Vader doesn't share.
Vader is one of the weakest Dark Lords featured in the Mythos, and he would get schooled in a battle with Mace Windu.
Yes he lost much of his potential, which means even at his maximum potential (when he is suited), he cannt be as good as Mace in the force. Go back to breast feeding your daughter, retard.
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So your saying a good djem so practitionar can beat dooku easily because it is the only factor? What about the users skill? What about the users proficiency?
Does that mean aayla secura, a master of djem so can beat count dooku when it's clear she cannot?
Is djem so one of the factors? yes but the ONLY factor? No.
You know if djem so was the only factor as you imply it was, AOTC anakin should have no problem defeating dooku, yet he got tooled in the end.
Right its also due to skill and proficiency, and its MOSTLY on skill.
Take a rocket launcher, if you have very little skill using it would it be any good against using it on a mere puny infantry unit if he can easily evade due to your lack of skill?
Skill counts
The novel NEVER stated that djem so was the sole factor of dooku going down, hell i have the novel and i can type out the entire fight for your sake.
It stated anakins pure skill made dooku's knowledge of the force a jpke as well as the fact that his combat mastery, skill and experience are irrelevant to the raw power of anakin skywalker
Dec 5th, 2007 06:56 PM
