He appears to have been in the same mindset there as he was against Dooku, yes. How else, aside from PIS, do you explain the disparity in his showings? At one point in LoE (I think) he can't even get past a durasteel door without the clones planting explosive charges; in the Temple, he topples, lifts, and hurls a several dozen-meter stone statue.
That was the first thing she did; whip out the holodisc she intercepted, break it, and threaten to kill her. That's why Anakin started the duel by screaming "First I'll kill you!"
That's a given. However, it doesn't make up for what he's lost in the confines of a duel.
Those two feats alone hardly put Maul above Ventress, but I won't argue this.
You're still missing the point. Vader being "his greatest creation" has no bearing on his overall ability as a duelist.
You're judging value based on swordsmanship, now?
I sincerely hope that's not why you think Vader, Bulq, or Grievous were important.
None of those people should have been threats to him to begin with, and they certainly wouldn't have been able to take Ventress in a duel.
Several, actually. After being wounded by a relatively unimpressive Knight early on in the book, he regains composure and "grace" and eventually maims and slaughters several Padawans and Knights in a very cool scene, then takes on Roan Shryne, a "master of the sword."
Of course, he ends up defeating Shryne with the Force, and Shryne couldn't even telekinetically move a fallen super battle droid... but I digress.
You can hardly hold it against them for being comparatively prepared, considering he walked right into an ambush.
I beg to differ. While I most definitely won't argue that she is the superior technical duelist or is remotely as conditioned and well-trained, he would have a very difficult time with her.
Not as a swordsman. Sixteen years after RotS, Shaak Ti was a better duelist than he was.
The Databank notes that she almost "perfected" her dual-bladed style, so the disparity between the two as far as technical skill goes cannot possibly be significant enough to make or break the fight. She is significantly faster and more agile than he is, she was almost too much for Anakin near his peak to handle - even with his rage being in play from the beginning of the fight - and quickly defeated one of the greatest swordsmen the Order had ever produced when she was still a relative neophyte. I still think it could go either way, but I'm definitely favoring her here.
Sorry about that. I'm usually not one to let other people get to me, but JesusIsAlive in the Religion forum and Robtard and Girth in the Movies Versus forum really got on my nerves.
I'm not.
I still have no idea why.
In hindsight, this was a very disjointed rebuttal. I don't think I be debating anymore today...
Registered: Aug 2008
Location: Don't Worry About It
Ventress obviously isn't as buff or as fast as maul, and Vader took Maul's clone (with a little difficulty), and defeated Maul. I would put Maul pretty far above Ventress. And Vader's command of the Force surpasses Ventress's by alot.
Ventress wouldn't be able to contend with Vader's brute physial strength, or unorthodox style. (not sure If I spelled that correctly.)
No, you're being outrageous. I didn't troll you. Did I utilize my psychic powers and predict you were going to reply to me so I could troll you? My first post in this thread addressed the topic at hand. What aren't you getting? If you cannot debate without allowing your emotions to control you, I simply refuse to even discuss things with you.
There's a difference between being an aggressive debater and outright bashing someone. Here is the deal, alright? You've insulted me and I did not appreciate it. Despite that, I'm just going to take it as a quick jab. You may have had a bad day or something. Regardless, I forgive you. I will reply to your debate soundly and hope this event does not occur a second time in the future.
I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here. I ask you not to abuse that. Please.
Yes, he had. I agree. How does this prove he was not a Shien practitioner? If he used it as a ruse, he has knowledge of it. He had become a Djem So form user. I don't disagree. What do think he utilized before this?
Also, this is what bothers me the most. It's clear you meant he never used Shien. Not once. Should I regurgitate the post?
What part of your own mistake arent you understanding, Lightsnake? Let's say for arguments sake that you're right and he only did use it as a ruse that one time. This means he did use it. That eliminates "never", okay?
I doubt that's all. Burning at the bottom of a scolding hot hill with your limbs gone might halter lightsaber speed and maneuverability. Also, why do you continue to mention Palpatine? He's manipulative and is a liar. Am I suppose to believe everything he says? I'm sure that's not all that damaged his physical performance with a lightsaber. Come on.
I never said he had trouble moving. If anything, you can use rhetoric quite well, Lightsnake. Due to his cybernetic change and loss of organic limbs, he cannot do the maneuvers he could before. There is a noticeable change. He cannot contort himself to the lengths he could when he was anatomically full. For example, he can spin his lightsaber around, perform extensive twists and is considerably faster.
After, as Darth Vader http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjCy...feature=related
What part of this isn't sticking? He clearly cannot do things he could do before. This shortens his ability as a duelist. Simple. Even using "Purge" as an example, you stated earlier this showed his maneuverability. No, it didn't. He didn't even fight with a lightsaber for more than a few seconds.
Why didn't they just kill him? He's powerful. No one is denying his power. This is what you're missing. He's simply not an accomplished duelist like he was in the PT. Also, I'm sure those servants fear his force powers as well. Or let me guess, to suit your argument, they must just be shivering at his lightsaber skills. Lol.
Surviving Order 66 doesn't make you uber with skill. A quick example would be Maris Brood, apprentice to Shaak Ti. Apparently, Morgukai was unstoppable considering Vader could not disable him with a 'saber. Vader did dispose of them and he is skilled. This does not prove anything when it comes to lightsaber combat. He had to turn their sabers off. He probably knew he'd lose in a duel. Hell, even in force, the three masters overpowered him near the end. And yes, he did surrender. He needed to buy time. Sad.
My apologies. I thought he used the force to do that. Damn, that mother has some deadly hands.
Where in Christs name did I say that? Thank you for admitting that. I appreciate it. I don't understand why you didn't in the first place. People make mistakes. Pushing your pride and pretending you didn't just makes you look arrogant.
That's nice. We were discussing lightsaber speed and maneuverability. If he didn't kill those two Jedi with a lightsaber or barely used it in the fight, how is it relevant?
Actually, she is a Dark Acolyte, to be specific. I usually refer to her as a Sith due to her nature and training under Dooku. Sorry for that. She is similar to a Sith. Dooku points this out as well: "A bold claim, but you are not Sith. You wear the trappings of the Sith, you fight like the Sith, but this can be imitated, however. You lack a vital quality found in all Sith. Sith have no fear, and I sense much fear in you."
She's a fraud. Lol.
Oh no! One Jedi is armed with a sword?! Do you remember the incident on Rattatak in the Cauldron? She fought several seasoned aliens and gladiators armed with all sorts of weaponry. I'm almost guaranteeing she'd last longer in lightsaber combat against these masters than Vader would, simply due to the fact that she is not a walking tin can.
I own Purge. What the hell are you going on about? If he was pretending to surrender, he was at their mercy. If they just decided to strike him down, he'd be done with. Don't worry about it. His troopers came and saved the day.
I read the comic. He was somewhat distracted because he was cornered and had his lightsaber disabled. He used the force because he could not overwhelm her with lightsaber skill. Have you LOOKED at the illustrations in the comic instead of just examining text?
Er, no. I made a few mistakes that I've taken responsibility for. You're still distorting the entirety of the debate.
I don't know how many different ways I need to answer it before you understand or how much things I need to show you.
Yes, he did. What does that have to do with cybernetic Vader fighting Ventress? Oh gee, Obi Wan took down Anakin after he defeated Dooku and Asajj defeated Obi Wan. Comparing them is laughable. No one is laughing at failing logic, Lightsnake.
Just because Jedi Knight Anakin can defeat Dooku doesn't mean that Ventress cannot defeat cybernetic Vader. Yes, he has demonstrated skill with the force and even considerable skill with a lightsaber. Vader would defeat her generally. In a lightsaber duel? No. Absolutely not.
Well, I agree. People don't normally wish to hurt their own son. Unfortunately, we're discussing a Sith Lord, not Mother Teresa. He had no emotions towards his son prior to that moment. Of course, he eventually came through and saved his life but he tore his SONS hand off with ease and asked him to join or else he'd kebab him with a 'saber.
I agree with you. I totally understand. After Vader had threatened his sister, he totally geared into batshit Jedi mode. That's not the point. Vader genuinely attempted to defend himself and disarm Luke. He was unable to. He did not have the skill to. His son had defeated him. He did not hold back. It says that NOWHERE despite the eternal conflict. No evidence suggests he was holding back. I could understand this being a possibility on ROTJ but not on ESB. Luke even had an open opportunity to nick his father on his arm. This is when Vader flipped his lid.
I'm not trying to completely demean Vader's skill in general here. He is a considerably powerful force user. There is no doubt about that. From what I've seen, his swordplay has deteriorated after the Mustafar incident. This is clear in his mobility. Look at the prequel trilogy.
You have? Oh really?
Luke ignites his lightsaber and screams in anger, rushing at his father
with a frenzy we have not seen before. Sparks fly as Luke and Vader
fight in the cramped area. Luke's hatred forces Vader to retreat out of
the low area and across a bridge overlooking a vast elevator shaft.
Each stroke of Luke's sword drives his father further toward defeat.
The Dark Lord is knocked to his knees, and as he raises his sword to
block another onslaught, Luke slashes Vader's right hand off at the
wrist, causing metal and electronic parts to fly from the mechanical
stump. Vader's sword clatters uselessly away, over the
edge of the platform and into the bottomless shaft below. Luke moves
over Vader and holds the blade of his sword to the Dark Lord's throat.
The Emperor watches with uncontrollable, pleased agitation.
Speaking of evidence, where does it suggest that Vader was holding back before he had turned against Palpatine? Oh wait. Luke, the Jedi with less than a year of training, thought he sensed that his father had a little slice of good in him. Is this why Vader used the force to find information about his sister to use against him? In an effort to turn him to the dark side? You beg me for evidence but cannot provide any yourself? Do not practice such bold hypocrisy, Lightsnake. It will not go by unnoticed.
Prove? What is there to prove? In the EU material and in the films, It is obvious his skill has deteriorated after the injury. Get with reality.
The evidence? Are you talking of events that you twisted? Just like Vader shows his maneuverability (You said that) in Purge when he lost the short lightsaber duel that he had?
Yes, I do as well. He sure counted on getting put into a generator shaft.
Doesn't take that much effort to troll, so cut the crap. If you're going to whine and moan like this, you're not worth my time, especially when you've been nothing but a sarcastic little brat your entire time here
Hey, here's me not caring and let me make this clear:
I'm responding because I feel letting such a shitty, pathetic argument from you going unanswered would be nothing short of a failure on my part. Only this time, I am extending you no respect or courtesy. You don't like it? Tough.
he was using two minor stances to fool Dooku. He had become, since Geonosis a Djem So practioner. At what point in the Clone Wars, is he noted to not use Djem So as his main form? That was where his talent lay.
Should I explain what I meant by it again? Or are you going to be the dishonest child we all know you to be?
What part of 'You were wrong over him using Shien as his main stance' doesn't register either? You implied it was his main form and he couldn't use it effectively as Vader
So...in his own personal Holocron and notes, Palpatine was lying about his apprentice's ability? Is Palpatine such an amazing liar, he felt the need to lie to himself in his own journals now?
Especially when sources say Vader compensated for his short comings and apparently became even more proficient when he honed his skills in the Purge. Want me to post the quote again? Want To read Gideon's post?
Such as? How does being placed in the cyborg body hinder his Djem So? If anything, it enhances it, given Vader focuses on quick, fast strikes.
What part of 'precision and skill being a massive part of Vader' do you not understand?
'Contort himself?' To what purpose? And 'spin his saber around?' If by 'totally useless maneuver' probably not. On the other hand, we've seen him spin it with one hand before. and again, we've seen extensive speed from Vader, why do I hold the evidence higher than your useless opinion?
You're aware in the EU, we see a great deal of showings from Vader, right? And as Vader, he useless far less extraneous and useless moves and goes right for a kill with his style? I mean, is this escaping you at all? Or did you miss the books where we see Vader's prowess?
No, don't answer. You'll only lie about it.
So, all the Jedi were just attacking for a few seconds? Before any other Jedi is able to react, he impales one, slices her hand off, withdraws the blade and meets the others.
Sorry, kiddo. That's speed. Defending oneself against multiple opponents? That's also skill and speed at work and requires maneuverability.
Strange how he seems to prefer the saber duel when he kills his opponents. He engaged Sheyvan, a powerful Emperor's Hand in one.
And as the EU materials directly state:
You are wrong. What is hard about this? Why do you refuse to yield your position when materials directly state Vader's exceptional dueling abilities? Is it pride? What the hell do you have to be proud of?
Fightsaber describes Vader's immense dueling ability. The Force Unleashed Novel nots his mastery and comments in addition to Form V, he also utilized Makashi and Juyo. Dark Lord, the rise of Darth Vader, has him butcher several Jedi when he finds his game. He starts off as clumsy and stiff in the suit. This changes almost in the first month.
[B]What part of this is difficult for you?
Considering he KILLED several of them with his saber skills when they went after him without ever utilizing the Force? The only laughter isn't with you, it's at you
Prove how she survived, thank you. Some survived by virtue of being nowhere NEAR Clone Troopers. Ma'Kis, on the other hand, like others, had to fight his way out.
Ok, now we all KNOW you're a liar.
Ma'kis was said to be unstoppable in combat and was among the greatest of the Morgukai before becoming a Jedi, combining both skills to become a feared master and one so dangerous, he was one of the Jedi survivors personally wanted by the Empire. Vader cut him down without effort, while hampered in the suit before he compensated for it on Kashyyyk, while outnumbered. And he did it BEFORE Shadday brought the Cortosis blade in.
Yes, being slow and clunky, he was able to disarm her, seize her by the neck and snap it.
One would think a Jedi master could avoid this if he was so slow
"He couldn't use Shien anymore! He was so much worse!"
This'd be so crippling if Shien and not Djem So was his main form...
Someone hasn't read Purge, considering he KILLS SIAN AND MA'KIS with...what's that glowing red thing in his hands?!
Yeah, she's not a Sith. one can usually tell if they read stuff with her in it
What part of 'cortosis' escaped you, now? Yes, the Jedi is armed with a sword. A sword that, once struck, given Vader meant to slice through it-and her, INSTANTLY DEACTIVATES YOUR ****ING LIGHTSABER.
She meant to render him helpless so the other five Jedi knights and masters would finish him off on the spot. I'll say it again, since you have trouble processing information:
The sword. Deactivates. Lightsabers. It makes them totally useless for minutes. How would she 'do better' than Vader when hemmed in from all sides by battle hardened warriors, now?
You turn ignorance into an art form.
Considering you have no idea WTF happens in it, why should I believe you?
He was pretending to surrender so they would fight amongst themselves, whereupon he got Bultar killed, killed Koffi Arana and got Bultar's saber while his own was useless.
Oh, no, Vader uses intelligent tactics when he's outnumbered.
When did he 'use the Force' now? He. snapped. Shadday's neck with his HAND. The one time he used the force was preventing Tsui Choi from escaping so she'd be gunned down.
And when couldn't he 'overwhelm her with saber skill?' I'll say it for the last time. His saber was deactivated. It's hard to fight with a saber when the damn thing won't turn on.
Liar.
Liar.
Golly gee, could it have anything with the quote saying that Vader's technical skill being above his younger incarnation, Mr. Peabody? The technical skill that was killing Ventress''s betters?
Hmmm...Oh, and OBi-wan kind of taught Anakin to fight and knew every move he made inside and out. And IObi-wan has taken Ventress before. In fact, what fights did Ventress win against Obi-wan while he was fresh, exactly? Most often, Obi-wan was trying to redeem her, or nowhere near his best. The first time they fought, His skull had been cracked open by Durge and he was barely able to stand from the poison gas around them. Second time, there was hardly contact between them. Third time, Obi-wan was escaping because he'd been tied up and tortured for a while.
I haven't read Cestus Deception, so please do inform me of this time
Yes, absolutely yes, and you're doing a horrible job proving your case.
The Sith Lord who desperately wants his son on his side, missed that?
Uhhh, he took Luke's hand years back and only meant to incapacitate him so he would join Vader there and reveal to him the truth. Vader always loved Luke and all points to that. Luke even says he feels the conflict
he was notably not trying to kill Luke. Luke was borderline unstoppable there to anyone just trying to disarm him.
Despite Vader's emotional turmoil, the desire to have Luke join him, despite Luke throwing himself into the Dark Side just as surely as Anakin did against Dooku...
Yeah, this is all totally a fair representation to use to bash Vader with.
Yeha, you're SO honest
And as I've provided several times, the sources say you're wrong.
Or just a liar.
How does any of that contradict what I said or support your points? ANY of it? It's describing the action, we all know what happens
"I feel the good in you, the conflict!"
I really can't believe Ninja here is distorting a huge part of Star Wars for his argument here
Because taunting someone is really an indication that all of the good they sensed about you is wrong.
Why do you think Vader turned on Palpatine in the end? Why the hell do you think Vader's DYING WORDS were 'you were right.'
This is just sad and hilarious.
"I say so! I DO! I'M SMART! I AM!"
Sorry, kiddo. Evidence is firmly against you from the EU. Need I cover the bit where Vader massacres a squad of stormies and is on their commander before he can RUN TO THE DOOR?
I've answered this stupidity
You know what's amusing? You using something haveing nothing to do with Palpatine's assessments of his subordinate's abilities. He names Vader the most skilled and greatest Jedi Killer of all time.
Given Palpatine knows about Ventress and DERIDES HER IN THE SAME SECTION, what does that tell you? Is Palpatine lying to himself about his subordinates' abilities?
This post is epic in its stupidity; what a lousy argument. Comparing the speeds of characters relative to the prequel or original trilogies is stupid. Palpatine, who is established through various supplement sources as being the most powerful and deadliest Lord of the Sith in galactic history, squares off against four Jedi Masters in his office during the events of Revenge of the Sith. Various visual guides and canon entires distribute accolades to all four swordsmen, the consensus being that they were all "celebrated swordsmen" and among the greatest bladesbeings in history. Yet if one were to gauge strictly the movie, one would likely not conclude as much, given that the movie depicts four Jedi and a Sith Lord with surprisingly slow reactions and acting like, quite frankly, old men banging one another with sticks.
I don't disagree with your premise, but using strict movie interpretations without supplement or corroboration is pointless and asinine.
During the events of the Courtship of Princess Leia, Skywalker is attacked by a powerful Nightsister by the name of Gethzerion. During the assault, he is overpowered and tortured, where he muses that "this [the torture] is what it would have been like if Vader had tried to kill me."
Skywalker seems to be under the impression that his father never really tried to kill him within the context of a duel.
While Palpatine's statements should arouse suspicion on most topics, his beliefs on Vader's status post-Mustafar were thoughts communicated during Rise of Darth Vader. He was not telling or censoring anything, unless you believe that Palpatine was trying to deceive the reader through manipulating the omniscient narrator.
On the whole of it, your sarcasm, juvenile demands, and own jabs reveal you to be a hypocrite, Forum Ninja, who (when losing a debate) will try to put emphasis on etiquette as misdirection and then report those who fail to cooperate (even though you're acting like a bit of an ass yourself).
That doesn't fly. You're going on ignore and I can guarentee that if this keeps up, I won't be the only one who casts aside your little comments and moves onto the next troll in line.
Registered: Aug 2008
Location: Don't Worry About It
yeah Palpatine probably didn't really die. He's just floating around, waiting for the Darth Revan+Bane+Ajunta Pall combined talisman which allows him to rule the Earth by controlling the autors of the books. Then he becomes immortal and vader gets pissed in the force, appears in spirit form and destroys palpy with his limitless power.
That was just a bad day. A very bad day. And no you do not need to remind me. At all. I meant, do I look that bad when I go all "GRAMMAR NAZI" (and then usually make an equally stupid mistake) as this guy does.
Feb 18th, 2009 04:41 AM
