The antimatter universe is of commensurate size and nature to the regular matter universe so don't even try and compare it to the Negative Zone.
Immediately following COIE to my knowledge there was only New Earth, the 5th Dimension, the 4th World, Alex Luthor's Paradise Dimension, and the Anti-Matter Universe. Of those only two are true Universes and yet two universes is enough to be a multiverse by the strictest definition: [more than one]universe=multiverse.
You get the point. The size doesn't change my point.
There was one main universe and it was painfully obvious this was the entire point of coie. To bog it down to one clear universe by eliminating the multiverse.
A multiverse is divergent realities springing forth from the main reality.
1. It is a Multiverse. Two Universes = Multiverse. There is nothing to agree or disagree. It's just a definition. But I knew you don't like to be wrong, that's why I wanted to PM you
2. The AntiMatter Universe has grown with eath Universe it destroyed, so it was as big as the previous Multiverse except the surviving.
3. An Infinite DC Universe and an Infinite DC Anti-Matter Universe (as powerful as the previous Multiverse) does indeed equate to a infinite Marvel Multiverse (or Omniverse), if all bias are dropped and both are treated equally. Both work with different Universal Concepts, you can't mix both just because they use similar terms.
4. xJLxKing is right. The birth of the Universe conatined the power to create an infinite DC Multiverse. Once Krona peered through the times he altered the outcome of the explosion so the Multiverse was created, this was more or less fixed with the CoiE. Maybe that's the reason why the DC heroes were so powerful before the Crisis. While Marvel distributes the power through multiple Universes and creates Cosmic beings to handle it, DC prefered the old fashioned way and treats their Heroes as cosmic beings, thus why Superman (Kal-L) could still fight AM who had the power of his Anti-Matter Universe. Both concepts are not really compareable on this scale, that's why so many discussions become fruitless. Just wonder why every hero from a different Marvel U then 616 is see as weaker?
Oh and we see that it still has the power of the Multiverse when Countdown happens, the birth of the new Multiverse is triggered by Luthor with the energies of the Main DC U.
5. The UN fired at the AM during CoiE would surely not end the Crisis. It would harm him but it would far from destroy him, that's something I'm sure of .
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Yea, they were different. It's a fact that one birthed a single universe (and antimatter universe) and the other birthed an infinite multiverse. I don't know why one created one or the other and I doubt that DC writers thought much about it either.
I understand that's what you think. But look where that leads: same Big Bang, same energy, that same energy must be distributed to (a) infinite multiverse or (b) single universe. In other words, the energy of that infinite multiverse = the energy of that single universe because the Big Bangs were the same. So what happens? The power required to destroy every alternate version of Mars across that infinite multiverse = the power required to destroy the single version of Mars in a single universe? Or vice-versa, the power required to destroy Mars in the single universe has enough power to destroy every alternate version of Mars across that infinite multiverse if you spread it around? That's an absurd result that logically tells you: well... the Big Bangs were different.1. Enough with the semantic nonsense. Galaxy is made up of stars. I don't call two stars a galaxy. Everybody knows when we refer to "multiverse," we're talking about that entire set of alternate universes that encompass a comic book company reality. When I talk about Earth-1 and Earth-2, I don't talk about the "Earth-1 and Earth-2 multiverse." Nobody would take such semantic terminology seriously.
2. You're completely missing one important point: this "super-grown Anti-Matter Universe" didn't even exist when Anti-Monitor travelled to the dawn of time where the bruhaha with Spectre and the DC heroes happened. Because it was the dawn of time and nothing existed yet.
And if you're arguing that the resulting Anti-Matter Universe was a "super-grown Anti-Matter Universe" because there was only one positive matter universe, then you're completely missing another important point: Anti-Monitor should have been extremely powerful (since he was merged with it) and been able to travel back to the dawn of time again (since absorbing the "super-grown Anti-Matter Universe" was what enabled him to get there in the first place). He wasn't, and he didn't. Did Anti-Monitor ever state or show that he was even more powerful than ever post-Big Bang? No. In the face of this, you're arbitrarily assuming your conclusion. That the Big Bang was the same and energy must be conserved. It's clear the Big Bang wasn't the same because energy wasn't conserved. 4. Give me a break. Now you're completely contradicting what you said earlier by suggesting that the Anti-Matter Universe was where all that extra energy went. You can't even figure out how to align your own interpretations with each other. Now the power of the DC Multiverse was channeled into Kal-L, who at first was just a single Superman from Earth-2 pre-Big Bang? Did Kal-L ever state or show that he was even more powerful than ever post-Big Bang? No. Nothing's been shown to suggest that either the post-Big Bang DC universe or the Anti-Matter Universe or Kal-L contained the energies of the DC Multiverse that existed beforehand. In fact, the absurdities that follow completely argue against such a suggestion.
Don't be absurd. According to your theory, everybody would have been like, "Oh no! My power decreased exponentially all of a sudden now that Alexander Luthor brought the infinite DC Multiverse back!" And then when it settled on 52 Universes, they would have been like, "Aha! Now my power is increased again, but not quite up to the level where only one universe existed!"
5. If it hit him, it'd nullify him completely. An entire Multiverse couldn't withstand it's power. Anti-Monitor is not greater than an entire Multiverse.
Don't feel offended just because someone disagrees with you . It doesn't matter what you think about DC intentions nor what I think in the end, you might not agree, but you opinion surely isn't the only possibility nor the most likely.
1. It's nonsense for you because it proves you wrong. And no, the Marvel U works differently, it calls itself an Omniverse which is made of Megaverses, Multiverses and Universes, some Dimensions etc. The DC Multiverse as it existed and exists now is made of Universes and differen't kind of Dimensions, an Source wall, the bleed and whatever. They work differently, to simpify this we can't use the Terms equally on this scale. It might work with planets, it might work with Galaxies but it fails at Universal, Multiversal, Megaversal, Omniversal and Dimensional Terms. It's no rocket science to see this. So ok enough with this discussion, you won't change your opinion that's ok with me.
2. It existed in the future like the remaining Universes which weren't consumed. fact.
Yes he traveled back to the energies which spawned everthing, which were still greater then the Anti-Matter Universe (as big as it was with all those Universes absorbed) because the dawn of creation birthed all the energies of all Universes the Antimatter Universe had absorbed + those it didn't, else there wouldn't even be a fight. If AM had destroyed all Universes he wouldn't have to go back in time .
4. You misunderstood me. I said that DC didn't have a need for cosmic beings back then because they made their heroes so powerful, some as powerful as New Gods. The Kal-L fight with the AM who absorbed the energies of his Antimatter Universe was just an example how poweful the PC-Superman was, not that he had the power of an Universe, just that he had enough power in him to give AM a fight. No contradictoon. Kal-L didn't need to absorb anything, DC made him powerful enough.
If you read IC however you would know that Kal-L is the key to the Multiverse though because everything comes from Superman .
The CoiE was DC way to decrease the power of it's heroes, the energies of the Multiverse went to the Antimatter Universe, the remaining Universes were merged, that's why PC-Superman is considered more powerful then Post-Crisis Superman. You might disagree but anyway. The reasoning behind the decrease in power was surely another, it made the comics more interesting. Though that explains a lot . When Alexander brought the Multiverse back he took the energy from? He had the remains of AM, he had Kal-L as the key, he used the Spectre etc... but who am i to guess where the energy came from .
5. AM is great enough to be a threat to the DC Universe (not Multiverse/Megaverse/Omniverse bias just everything what DC has) he would surely resist a weapon which is a threat to the Marvel Multiverse (or Omniverse if it wasn't established back then and if the Multiverse it remade wasn't just a part of the Marvel Universe (<- everything Marvel has)) but everything in the Marvel U. He already resisted an energy greater then his own.
And that's the reason why I had prefered PM. You are to stubborn to accept if you are wrong in public, like Quan.
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Last edited by Prof. T.C McAbe on Jan 6th, 2010 at 12:27 AM
5. Am was great enough through prep to be a threat because most weren't even aware of what was going on until there universes were being destroyed. The un can remake/destroy you with a press of a button. Am's physical shell was already wrecked just by Supergirl earlier in the story.
Am was a pretty big threat to dc, but nowhere near as powerful as the un or the ig. In dc it was epic, but imo the marvel threats/feats of power are more impressive in terms of what their big threats are capable of and what dc big threats are capable of.
I'm certainly not offended by you being wrong. You can rest assured of that.
1. Arbitrarily declaring it works differently doesn't change the fact that based on your explanations, it's complete nonsense. I'm not going to look at Earth-1 and Earth-2 and say, "Well... that there's a multiverse!" No. I'm going to say, "Well... that there's two universes!" Uh duh.
2. No. It didn't even exist in the future because Anti-Monitor absorbed it in order to travel back to the dawn of time. Gawd.
Nothing of what you said in the following paragraph makes sense. 4. Kal-L was powerful, but not because he was imbued with exponential power from the Big Bang. Why? Because he wasn't portrayed as any less or more powerful back when there were more universes around. Think.
That doesn't suggest that Kal-L contains the multiversal energies that weren't sent into either the single universe or the antimatter universe post-Big Bang.
You're ridiculous. Did you even just see what you wrote? If now none of those heroes are supposed to be more powerful, you just contradicted where you felt that Kal-L became more powerful. Good god. And guess what?! The antimatter universe didn't become more powerful! Why? Because Anti-Monitor was connected to it and he wasn't more powerful post-Big Bang! Not only did he never state or even suggest or prove he was more powerful, he got wrecked by all these "depowered" heroes! LORD.
5. He didn't resist anything more than what the sorcerers and heroes "resisted." They all survived, so what?
And this is the reason why I prefer open debate. To expose how backwards your reasoning is and you don't even see it.
It's still Multi, how YOU call it is not important.
See that's what i mean, you tend to become quite hostile once you are cornered. So it's best to rest the case for me as I don't whish hostility. His Universe provided the energy, true, he absorbed million worlds, true but his Universe remained. Brainiac couldn't sense his presence neither in the normal Universe nor the AM Universe. Wrong again, I guess.
Just because you disagree but nevermind.
I never said Kal-L was portrayed more powerful. I said he is just that powerful. I said however that Post-Cris Superman was less powerful. You keep misunderstanding me, i hope not on purpose.
I didn't said it did i? It's ridiculous of you to accuse me of this. Kal-L ist just what he is, a beast powerful enough to hurt the AM.
The Antimatter Universe grows and becomes more powerful with each Universe it destroys, you might not like this but that's ok.
AM got wrecked once they exploited his weakness with a plot device character who was created for the sole purpose of CoiE. LORD
They survived in a differen't way. They were remade into the new Universe, they earned their place in the new universe, while the Spectre for example got to live with the effect of the explosion. That's a big difference IMO.
I like open debates with people I'm sure can stay polite and who can control their offensive natures. That's the sole reason I proposed you the PM .
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Last edited by Prof. T.C McAbe on Jan 6th, 2010 at 01:39 AM
Projecting some kind of temper tantrum onto my comments? Cute.
Oh yes. Earth-1 and Earth-2 can be called a "multiverse" to you. And I suppose that Earth-3 and Earth-4 is a separate "multiverse." So I guess when you look at Earth-1, Earth-2, Earth-3 and Earth-4, you rationally say to yourself, "Oh, hey now... here be two multiverses!" Yes. I'm sure that's what you do. Far be it for me to restrict free thought.
Projecting my cornering of you onto me is a waste of time. I'll take a look at it later to see ifd this is true. Ultimately it is irrelevant because my original point still stands: this "super grown antimatter universe" didn't exist at the dawn of time. No, really. You didn't make any sense in that paragraph. You tried to conflate the existing crisis with some sort of quantification of energy levels and it was compeltely incoherent.
Doesn't matter as the next few paragraphs reveal. So what? How does Kal-L being powerful have anything to do with how you think energy was redistributed in the Big Bang? Seriously? So what about the antimatter universe? This "supergrown antimatter unvierse" didn't exist at the dawn of time. NOWHERE is it stated that the new antimatter universe had the power of all the DC multiverse save for one universe. Show me where. Prove it.
Because you declare it to be so? Well, you're providing the answer to your own issues: If Spectre had to live with the effects of the explosion, then Antimonitor and the heroes and sorcerers didn't have to. Ok, so that's how they all survived. And there is no difference. Makes sense to me. I like debates where posters like you (i) can remain coherent, (ii) bring forth things from the comics pages themselves, (iii) not rely on cute semantics and wordplay to suggest that two universes = multiverse just like infinite universes = multiverse, (iv) not project your own insecurities onto me, and (v) resort to ad ignorantium.
Your reasoning is atrocious. You ignore the simplest thing, that nowhere is it even suggested that after the Big Bang, this new antimatter universe is some superpowerful conglomerate. Is it? No. Such a notion is made obvious by the fact that Anti-Monitor himself, who is connected to it, didn't demonstrate any vast new power or even allude to such a circumstance. You're making this up to avoid the single simple fact that is stated and illustrated on-panel:
In one instance, an infinite multiverse is born. In the other instance, a single universe is born. They're not the same. Not even close.
It doesn't matter how many Universes, one or infinite. Multiverse is the term DC uses for all the Universes it contains. So no, if there are 4 Universes you have one Multiverse not two Multiverses. If two Universes would be independent of the DC U it would be two Multiverses though. That isn't hard to understand.
Look at the CoiE issue after AM went to the dawn of Time, the page after the Guardians talk to Guy.
And it still is relevant as you said "No. It didn't even exist in the future because Anti-Monitor absorbed it in order to travel back to the dawn of time. Gawd." See, wrong again. It won't make you less smart to accept that you can be wrong, on the contrary.
I never said the AM universe existed at the dawn of time . You keep misunderstanding me, sure it's not on purpose?
Second # of CoiE for example. AM "I steal his strength and mine grows stronger" Universe after Universe has fallen before my power, world after world is absorbed into one"
The Heroes woke up from a dream, they were integrated into the new Universe. AM and the Spectre suffered from the explosion and weren't simply remade
You become unfriendly so this is my last post till you cool down.
And I never said that they are the same just that both were born through the same process. The energies were the same, the outcome was different, once because of Krona, the second time because of the AM and Spectre.
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No it's not. Which reveals why your conflation of the universe and the antimatter universe as being a multiverse doesn't change the fact that it's still not a multiverse equal to the original DC Multiverse or the Marvel Multiverse. How about I take a look at this, which conclusively shows that your so-called "supergrown antimatter universe," which you thought still existed in the future, actually didn't exist. As is clear, if anything was left, it was an ordinary antimatter universe as all the power, was absorbed by Anti-Monitor himself:
(please log in to view the image)
So sorry I said that the antimatter universe didn't exist because Anti-Monitor absorbed it. I should have been clear and said, the "supergrown antimatter universe you assert existed," didn't exist in the future because Anti-Monitor absorbed all the energy from it. Which in either case, my misstatement on the particulars of the facts doesn't make my analysis or original statement incorrect:
But it sure as heck makes your original response incorrect: Nope. No "supergrown antimatte universe" in the future. Not even. You can try following your own advice concerning when people are wrong. You keep acting like the Big Bang that occurred in Crisis on Infinite Earths was like a multiversal destruction/recreation conflagration. It wasn't. It was a single universe being born. No multiverse existed.
So what? Those events happened in the future and Anti-Monitor absorbed all those energies to travel back to the dawn of time. They went back to the dawn of time and the multiverse never existed. Hence, no multiverse to be absorbed into the antimatter universe.
Oh. So now the Anti-Monitor suffered from the explosion because you arbitrarily declare it to be so. Well, he didn't look like he suffered at all. Prove he suffered.
Take your hurt feelings and get over it. More projection. It isn't cute anymore.
The energies weren't the same. One created an entire multiverse, the other created a single universe. This wasn't some burgeoning new universe that had energy levels equal to the original multiverse. And these "make-believe" burgeoning energies didn't transfer to the antimatter universe either. You have no proof to suggest they did. And there's proof that completely counters such an erroneous assumption: Because neither the Anti-Monitor, nor the antimatter universe post-Big Bang was as super powerful as it was when it absorbed an infinite number of positive matter universes. You haven't posted a single shred of proof stating so or even alluding to it. There are other ways to expose the holes in your argument, but this is the easiest.
I never said that it's equal to the original DC Multiverse nor the Marvel Multiverse on the contrary. The new DC Multiverse was made of two (or more) Universes while the previous DC Multiverse was made of 1000 (or more) Universes, quite differen't, like black and white. It represents though exactly what the former DC Multiverse represented, the whole of the DC U.
I also never said that the "supergrown Antimatter Universe" as you now call it existed in the future. I said contrary to you, that the Antimatter Universe still exists in the future which is right, I did not care about the energies of the AM, the energies are not the space nor the size. You see that you are wrong so you try to change the point of the argument. The AM U exists, though the energies are with the AM. Simple. You were wrong.
I accept your apology though. I guess we agree now on something .
As for the birth of the DC U. The first time the big bang happend just the single DC U was born, Krona peering through the time to the dawn of creation and his try to see beyond it, was the reason for the birth of the Multiverse. His attempt altered the outcome. Like the AM and Spectre at the dawn of creation altered the outcome once again.
The Spectre suffered from the battle at the dawn, Phantom stranger states that.
The AM absorbed the energies of the "super AM U" and used them to go back to the dawn of creation. Even after the new big bang he says "I was to enlarge my AM U to replace all other Universes" so this event happened, he remembered it, like the heroes did.
I don't have to prove that he suffered at the dawn of creation, you did that already and you don't disagree with me here. He went to the dawn with the energies he absorbed in the future, he fought and lost, an all he was left with were the remaining energies of his AM U, still enough to be a threat but weaker. If that doesn't mean he suffered
Do not worry about my feelings, just stay polite and everything is ok .
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Last edited by Prof. T.C McAbe on Jan 6th, 2010 at 04:19 AM
Don't try to backtrack. You were and still are suggesting that the energies are equal.
Utterly false. You absolutely cared about the collected energies of the antimatter universe as is clear from this back and forth: And I'm the one trying to change the point? You're not confusing anybody by your feigned ignorance. What did you think? That these posts would magically disappear? Pretty wishful thinking. Extremely poor execution. So what? How does that even begin proving that all those energies were now contained in the new antimatter universe post-Big Bang? It simply doesn't. Keep up with the deflection tactics, but they're pathetically obvious. Recounting an obvious true fact here and there, intersliced with the absurd reasoning, doesn't suffuse your absurd reasoning with any element of truth. Those facts are completely inaposite and do nothing to suggest that the energies of the original multiverse were absorbed into the antimatter universe post-Big Bang.
(i) No kidding Spectre suffered. Has got nothing to do with proving that Anti-Monitor tanked anything. (ii) No kidding Anti-Monitor from issues #1-9 absorbed the positive matter universes. Has got nothing to do with proving that Anti-Monitor or the new antimatter universe post-Big Bang were suffused with the energies of the original DC Multiverse. Your deflection tactics are juvenile, transparent and now repetitive. (iii) Did you notice that you just completely tanked your entire argument in the underlined part by acknowledging that Anti-Monitor was weaker post-Big Bang?
Had the post-Big Bang antimatter universe been suffused with the energies of the original DC Multiverse, Anti-Monitor wouldn't have been weaker than he was before. As it stands, because he was weaker even after absorbing it again, that establishes that the energies of the original DC Multiverse weren't suffused into the post-Big Bang antimatter universe. Which proves your initial conclusion wrong. It also establishes that for whatever reason, the universe destroying/recreation blast that occurred at the climax of issue #10 did not contain the same energies as a multiversal destruction/recreation.
Which is exactly the point of this discussion from the very beginning. A universe was destroyed/recreated. Not a multiverse. Illustrated, narrated and stated. On-panel. And more than that, reinforced by the obvious ramifications which you ended up revealing yourself while chasing your own tail. Good show.
I do not backtrack. Your attempt at quoting me out of the context is pretty funny though.
"2. The AntiMatter Universe has grown with eath Universe it destroyed, so it was as big as the previous Multiverse except the surviving. "
Caring about energy, where? Stating something about post big bang, where?
"2. You're completely missing one important point: this "super-grown Anti-Matter Universe" didn't even exist when Anti-Monitor travelled to the dawn of time where the bruhaha with Spectre and the DC heroes happened. Because it was the dawn of time and nothing existed yet."
"2. It existed in the future like the remaining Universes which weren't consumed. fact."
Still nothing about the energies, just about the fact that the Universe exists in the future, when AM traveled back to the dawn of creation which you denied (which btw happend pre big bang, post big bang he didn't travel back to the dawn of creation). You were just wrong. "2. No. It didn't even exist in the future because Anti-Monitor absorbed it in order to travel back to the dawn of time. Gawd."
You executed yourself btw. He absorbed the energies not his Universe, that was still there.
You are again rather offensive and insulting. You try to put words in my mounth that suit your case because you were wrong.
The discussion started with you saing it was a single Universe while it still was a Multiverse, a small one but still pre big bang it was bigger, post big bang it was smaller if you wish so, energywise. You were wrong. It went on with you saing that the Antimatter Universe didn't exists in the future, at the time AM was at the dawn of creation, which I showed you is false. I would have never guessed that being wrong two times will get you so offensive and obsessed in attacking me on each possible straw you can find. You bring up the term "post big bang" so you have at least a point where you can accuse me of being wrong, because it's your only chance. Some facts become simply wrong if you take them to another point of the story. Pre big bang- till the dawn of time fight AM = energy of all the consumed Universes, post-big bang AM = Energies left in his U. Talk about pathetic
The energies of the AM and the big bang were important, but I never stated he had the same post big bang, that's your misinterpretation. That's however what you would like. I didn't doubt however that those energies were somwhere, I even said "He had the remains of AM, he had Kal-L as the key, he used the Spectre etc... but who am i to guess where the energy came from", I can only guess, would I guess they are in those 3 beings or at least connceted to them so they can act as a focus? Yes. Would that mean the energies are in the AM U post big bang, no. You keep misinterpreting my post on purpose, at least I'm sure now.
You recount your "inerpretation" of what i "implied" over and over again, i guess recounting is a luxury for the few and not for all
So again, I never said that the energies went to the Antimatter U post big bang. I said they went there and that happened, my bad for not adding that it was pre big bang, i though it was obvious as all the Universes were consumed pre big bang (not pre big bang in the timeline, just pre big bang in the story, i have to be more careful for you )
The Spectre suffering was to show another point, a point you dropped because it couldn't help you attacking me
Your blind rage that keeps you attacking me becomes repetitve btw.
Sure he was weaker, he took the energies to the dawn of creation with him, fought and lost, he suffered. No contradiction, just your way of misinterpretation.
They weren't suffused in the AM U post big bang, no contradiction with everything i said. But it doesn't establishes that the "universe destroying/recreation blast that occurred at the climax of issue #10 did not contain the same energies as a multiversal destruction/recreation" just because you say so. Where the remaining energies went is a guessing game. No facts. That it's still there is shown by Alexander who remade the Multiverse.
A Multiverse was destroyed (with a thousands or more Universes) and an Multiverse (Anti-Matter + Universe + maybe more) was recreated, no contradiction. You were simply wrong.
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Last edited by Prof. T.C McAbe on Jan 6th, 2010 at 08:51 AM
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Jan 5th, 2010 08:36 PM
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Ok cool down buddy. 
. You keep misunderstanding me, sure it's not on purpose?
"2. No. It didn't even exist in the future because Anti-Monitor absorbed it in order to travel back to the dawn of time. Gawd."
