I don't think it was ever flat out stated to be the case. But their respective fights against Gorr makes it pretty clear. Especially if you consider the Remender appearance.
He said the Thor Force was drained 900 years ago but thought he felt the rumblings of it's return. IIRC, even right before he blasted Gorr, he was like let's see if I still have the power or whatever. That's probably why many assume he's a shadow of his former self.
I mean yes, seeing his younger self rejuvenated him but I don't think it would actually actively restore energy like the Odin Sleep because he's confident again.
Did you read the King Thor/Galactus fight?
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Last edited by Rage.Of.Olympus on Apr 20th, 2014 at 08:16 PM
But Young Thor like barely did worse than Normor (outside the planet shattering). Even in that instance he still managed to land some good shots on Gorr without Mjolnir, like knocking him through the worm hole, and landing a solid hit. Plus he did "beat" him at one point as well.
Hell, he also was wiping the floor with Black Berserkers while every Thor in the arc had trouble with them at some point in time, though dynamic strength you know.
And Remender Thor tanked an axe that kills Celestials...
Apocalypse was just written incredibly high, or dare I say "right". If Remender wrote the fight with normal Thor I have no doubt he'd do the same thing. After all, he had no problem with Sentry running amok on Thor. Though he might have Mjolnir make the difference.
If people want to say a lack of Mjolnir holds him back, then so be it. However, his strength/durability didn't seem to differ so much from now, so I fail to see how it just became a fact that he was weaker.
The rumblings when it was returning. If it can suddenly return from nothing, then who's to say it stopped there?
Plus, that whole question was basically "Do I have the full Thorforce anymore? Well, I guess I do considering I nigh one shotted a guy who kills Elder Gods".
If anything that series of questions backs up that he had the full Thorforce... Maybe he didn't, however, but there's no real indication in that comic that he was weakened like everyone just assumes.
Also:
"Such was the awesome might of an All-Father unleashed"
But that same logic works with why would it restore energy in the first place? If it can do that, then why would it stop at shadows? Especially when he also had more time to recover?
Anyway, King Thor was clearly superior to the other Thors anyway. So whether or not he was at full power isn't quite relevant to anything. But just the "fact" again that he was weakened kind of irks me since he wasn't actually stated to be diminished in that arc.
But he did do worse. He got a great hit in but was injured and tossed away not too long after. All we need to do is compare their respective performances against Gorr. Adult Thor can flat out take more damage.
He killed two black berserkers. In the same issue, current Thor was dropping like a dozen of them at the same time. King Thor even without the Odin Force was taking on like hundreds of them although he was ultimately defeated.
It's not about Thor getting beat up. That super speed ram into the alien planet that Sentry hit current Thor with would have done more damage to Young Thor if Apocalypse is anything to go by.
Because of how badly he fared at different points in comparison to the current one. It wasn't just a lack of Mjolnir. Maybe it's perseverance/will power but I'd argue that if the current and young were to have like a slug fest, the younger version would get wrecked imho.
Now you are extrapolating to the point that you need additional evidence. All we know is that it was drained almost completely and his mental rejuvenation tapped into some hidden resource inside. That however is a FAR cry from the Odin Force being at full power like you're suggesting. He'd need a full Odin sleep (IIRC a week or whatever) to restore his power just due to the time period alone, nevermind getting into fights.
There's a difference between digging in to find an untapped reserve and having a Senzu bean. Because stopping at shadows is as far as we know that it went.
More time to recover from what? And the Odin Force isn't something that just restores itself with time. If that were the case, he wouldn't have been so lacking when Gorr first attacked and for the 900 years that followed.
Also, it seems that the Odin Force was spent a lot longer then 900 years. It was Gorr who attacked 900 years ago and by then, it seems he no longer possessed it.
It was flat out stated that it was completely drained a long time ago. And he thought he felt the rumblings of it's return. It just so happens that he was right and he could tap into it again.
Galactus claimed to be hungry in the recent fight with Thor but he wasn't actually stated to be diminished in that arc. As a matter of fact, he's still digesting energy from plenty of planets. Are we to assume he's more powerful then ever? I mean, sure, it'd be nice if everything was clear cut and precise.
You may be right, he may have the full power, but based on the available evidence, I find that to be a silly notion.
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Last edited by Rage.Of.Olympus on Apr 20th, 2014 at 09:55 PM
Not sure how he did worse. Not enough on panel, maybe. He didn't do as much though, I'll concede that. That doesn't mean he necessarily did worse, just that he didn't do as good.
And Current Thor was injured after that as well, the problem is he could have flew back if he had been knocked into space.
But respective showings against Gorr... Young Thor double KO'ed himself and Gorr. As well as cut off his arm and almost killed him.
And everything Young Thor took was almost continuous throughout the entire arc. Right after he got tortured for 17 days by Gorr, he got put on the slave planet which led right into the final battles with Gorr. And that 17 days of torture was only 7 days after their first fight. Modern Thor at least got some let up.
Young Thor fought Gorr, then Gorr again, then tortured for 17 days straight, then Gorr again, then Gorr again, then slaved, then Gorr again, and then all three fought Gorr, then he bit Gorr's eye out in a scuffle, then he killed Gorr after Modern doubled Mjolnir'd him. And that's ignoring fights with the berserkers.
If he did indeed look inferior (which he really didn't any more than rivals look different in comics), then he at least has a reason for it.
I realize they all started slaughtering them after they activated dynamic strength mode. What I'm saying is Young Thor was the only one who really didn't have any trouble with them at any point.
Nah, Apoc > Sentry. Young Thor would have giggled it off.
But his showings aren't even bad in comparison. If Thor were to beat him in a slugfest, it should be attributed to experience, as opposed to raw power.
I'm sorry if I disagree that rumblings means it stops there when he first feels it... ?
I'll speak more on the others in a bit. But he should have needed the Odinsleep to get the power back in the first place.
Another would be that it answered the question that he had the full force.
And that it stated it was the might of an all father unleashed.
But his untapped reserve was non existent anyway. He essentially spawned a power up out of thin air. And it was to say the least, quite powerful. I don't feel there's enough to say he was in a weakened state.
An apt comparison would be to compare it with when Thor first gained the Odinforce, but he was shit at using it. He wasn't actually weaker, he just needed to learn what the hell to do with it, and was shit at it. Something this Thor didn't need.
Though, that is an assumption, but that'd be the closest thing I could think of.
I mean, the guy later was wrassling Gorr and overpowering him without Mjolnir. He threw a planet into a black hole. Blasted Gorr light years and had him rethinking his life. And this is Gorr at the height of his powers who was killing Elder Gods and other such pantheons at lesser levels. That to me doesn't scream diminished. Especially when he does all that on one "rumbling" charge. Meh
And the Odin Force isn't something that just goes away and comes back due to "confidence".
But it evidentially is in that story. You can't just apply 616 Odinforce to this one when nothing indicates the same type of usage. Odin would straight up pass out when he was low on Odinforce (though exceptions of course). This Thor, did not. And this Thor in over 900 years apparently never thought to go into an Odinsleep to reinvigorate himself... or it just straight up didn't work the same. Which all evidence points to. This Thor apparently was using rumblings to fire huge blasts repeatedly, and if he's only going on rumblings, then it seems that would be spent. Which brings us to why would he have so much energy against Galactus, since apparently an Odinsleep doesn't restore his power as evidenced by him not doing that in 900 years. Or maybe we assume he did use the Odinsleep before the Galactus fight, but that only makes the talk of him losing it in the first place questionable, as well as why he wouldn't try this at any time.
There's many contradictions between 616 canon and that. So why are we using 616 as a sole basis for how that works? Either we assume his power grew over time once he gained it. We assume that rumblings was just a word used to describe him getting it back, and it was actually at full power due to the next time he used it. Or we assume rumblings meant his powers stayed at a tiny fraction of his full might based solely on that word, and ignoring the later happenings.
Completely drained, and ever since the force came back, it was not stated to be in diminished capacity. It answered the question that he still had it. When he used it, it stated it was the might of an all father unleashed. Whenever he used it, Young Thor dropped a bucket of jizz in his pants. He called it his once again. Etc. Although, maybe the whole ALL FATHER UNLEASHED meant that it was just the might of the rumblings of an all father unleashed.
If we're going to take the "rumblings" at face value when that was the precise moment it came back WHEN it essentially gave him a power boost out of nowhere, then why would we assume it stopped there? If the "Rumblings" line would have never happened, then would you think King Thor was in lesser capacity, and why?
I was unaware that Galactus was the same character as Thor. But you're right, Thor did not feed on a planet so he must have been weakened.
But all I got was opinions why the two were weaker. What I never received was facts. And for things that are being treated as facts, you'd think there'd be facts to back those up. What I'm asking here is really a gripe for what I see passed around as fact around here, and doesn't hurt much, but it still brings about questions to tickle my fancy.
Though I like your defensiveness when I'm trying to help your case. Being stuck in your own opinions is much more important than being helped I guess.
But maybe you're right. Young Thor is quite a ways under current Thor physically. And King Thor was at a fraction of his powers, which means Gorr was weaker as a result. And all those Thor lost to him too, lol.
WW beats the shit out of Young Thor. A being superior to Superman >> a being inferior to Thor.
King Thor regained some of the Odin Force and has been running on that juice since the Gorr fight and against Galactus. Based on the available evidence, that is the only possible conclusion I can reach without starting to throw in wild speculation about how things may or may not work.
You know what? You're right.
It's never been stated King Thor is flat out weaker (Although it was never pointed he was at full power or whatever and the burden of evidence is on you to prove that he is if that is what you believe) and that Young Thor was physically less powerful then adult Thor.
If you want to believe otherwise, I can't really convince you as nothing is completely black and white.
That being said, ignoring how the Odin Sleep has worked for 70 years, including Reigning King Thor (The inspiration for this one), is imho flat out ridiculous. Like I said, this Galactus never indicated that being hungry made him weaker in power, are we to assume he's as powerful as he ever was? Maybe when he says hungry, he means for earth specifically due to revenge.
And do you really believe Apocalypse > Sentry (Amped by the Death Seed no less) in power?
You think Diana > Superman, Superman > Thor? Because being inferior to current Thor to a degree does not automatically someone inferior to Wonder Woman.
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Last edited by Rage.Of.Olympus on Apr 21st, 2014 at 12:02 AM
I don't think his power has depleted though, is what I'm saying. Or at least not to the point he would actually need an Odinsleep, if he does currently still run on that.
The whole "Might of an All Father unleashed" implies that he is acting in full capacity. And again, I ask what leads you to believe he is in weaker capacity if you exclude the "rumblings"?
Was it him almost one shotting a Skyfather level being that convinced you? Tanking a punch that put him through a planet and breaking a moon? Either opening a black hole and throwing a planet into it, or dragging a planet to some random black hole and throwing it in there likely light years away? Etc.
I agree that it isn't so black and white. Which was my major gripe with it in the first place. As long as you're admitting previous indications aren't absolute fact, I'm OK with that.
I'm not ignoring how the Odinsleep works, the comic is. The only way it makes sense in the grand scheme of things is if it's akin to when Thor first gained the Odinforce and was essentially at full power from that first charge (though he was shit at using it). And maybe it makes more sense when I think of it like that.
Though it still doesn't answer why exactly he lost it in the first place, or why he couldn't have Odinslept in those 900 years, but plot I guess.
And Galactus needing to eat planets has been in like every single comic he's ever appeared in... not quite the same thing to say the least.
I think under Remender, he'd have him beating Sentry. Everything that guy's written for like 6 years has been about Apocalypse.
I don't personally think Apoc is above Sentry, but I won't attribute Apocalypse's feat to Sentry just because he might possibly be stronger. Young Thor was no pussy after all, and that feat was a little bit extreme, for anyone around that level. Yes, it'd be more acceptable if Young Thor was weaker, but I don't figure that's the case based on Young Thor's history. Hell, even you yourself used the Odin/Destroyer vs Young Thor fight as evidence.
I don't believe any of that personally. I'm just saying if you're so apt in disproving everything I state when I try and back you up, that that's what it could lead to.
And since you earlier brought up a query about what I thought about Galactus, as well as your insistence on talking about him I'll answer some things.
Galactus was weakened. King Thor was at a nice level. Now, that doesn't mean much since I'd put it in the same vein as the weakened Galactus vs IB fight. It was just an incredibly good showing for hungry Galactus that he gets every once in a while. Honestly, he would have been scraped in most other comics, but I guess Aaron is a little bit more respectful... though his Galactus dialogue is despicable.
It doesn't change much in the grand scheme of things. Not something to use against King Thor (though it inevitably will because dawg Alpha Flight beat him!). King Thor fought a high end Hungry Galactus and did incredibly well. Simple really. Same thing likely would have happened if he had fed, but it is what it is. Though tbh, that's how I would have written it.
King Thor is still a high end Skyfather. Galactus is still Galactus.
Or in another way to look at it. He fought a being that was able to take many shots without having to resort to blocking and still came out well. And we know King Thor hits like a sonofawhore, so other Galactus low showings are ultimately irrelevant in that instance (as well as alternate reality).
I know you'll disagree with me, but that's just my take.
The Odin Force was drained completely. He couldn't use it as Gorr was slaying his children. The idea that it was anything less then noticeably depleted is imo idiotic.
No, the might of the All-Father implies that he finally started to fight at the level of a Skyfather. That however does not mean that he's fighting at his very best. You just listed off a bunch of good feats. That doesn't mean he has to be at full power anymore than other characters.
The comic is not necessarily ignoring the Odin Sleep, it's saying that it was drained to the point that the Odin Sleep was perhaps not functioning. This incarnation was directly inspired by Jurgen's version.
Are you asking me to prove that the Odin Sleep is still a factor? Because I believe it'd be like asking you to prove that Galactus still needs to feed to be at full power. It's imho retarded.
I agree to some extent. Even if Galactus was at full power and King Thor was running on fumes or vise versa, I doubt the fight would have gone any different. That being said, I don't think we should jump to conclusions just because they are convenient based on what we believe feats into the hierarchy. Although I guess ultimately it is all irrelevant.
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Last edited by Rage.Of.Olympus on Apr 21st, 2014 at 02:22 AM
What does adult Thor's lightning means in this thread? And yes, it was a narrow beam which hit Gorr. I don't know how you could miss that.
Made by an amped Iceman doesn't makes ice shards more powerful. You're being silly again.
Getting beaten isn't impressive for me. Superboy going three rounds with SBP doesn't makes him a top tier either.
Tough shit. He wasn't as powerful as he was later on, he could've been anywhere in power.
Wait? You think young thor is as strong as Hercules? So Adult Thor>>Young Thor=Hercules=Adult Thor? What kind of BS is that?
You don't believe Iceman's constructs, much less ones where he is amped by a Celestial Death Seed (To the point he would have killed everyone on the planet and was about to), are more durable then ice shards?
Serious or trolling? I'm giving you benefit of the doubt here.
Not what I said. In strength, I'd say Hercules would be superior but Young Thor is on his level in regards to this specific incarnation. That doesn't mean he's completely on par.
If you include his OP axe and weather powers and he'd wreck Hercules in a fight.
I don't even know what you could be responding to with your first line. Since my first line was talking about after it came back...
Unless you're saying the Odinforce was drained completely after it came back... ?
Well, if that's what it means, then that would mean he was fighting not at the level of a Skyfather, but at the level of the All Father. Which is a little bit more impressive. In fact, if that's what you think that line means, then you just indirectly agreed with my point, even with your twisting of it.
He was fighting at the level of the All Father, ie the most powerful Skyfather level. Good point Rage.
And yes, I listed a bunch of good feats. But what I listed was consistent with the previous feats of Jurgens Thor who you kept bringing up. It was consistent with his high feats. It was consistent with good feats as a whole really. Hell, most of those feats would be Jurgens' Thor high feats. Maybe he was diminished, maybe he was. But his feats do not in any way tell that story.
And you keep ignoring the question there pal. If you took the word "rumblings" away, then what is Thor being weakened based off of IYO?
Well, if the comic isn't ignoring the Odinsleep, then he doesn't need it, no?
And again, how could it be completely depleted if he could have simply went into the Odinsleep to regain it? It seems odd to say the least.
And no, the Odinsleep doesn't suddenly function differently, good point. Which will lead directly into my next point.
The Odinsleep is only a factor when he's weak anyway. You randomly inserting it into the plot as a reason why he was probably weakened doesn't work when exactly the opposite is shown, IE, he didn't need the Odinsleep. If you're going to keep bringing up Odinsleep as some sort of point, then it'd be interesting to show him actually needing to go into the Odinsleep to refill his power. The absence of the Odinsleep doesn't prove he's weakened, in fact, it goes against that notion entirely.
Galactus needed to feed. Odin didn't need to go into the Odinsleep. What does that tell you?
We can keep talking about how relevant the Odinsleep is all day, or how much of a factor it really is, but at the end of the day if you keep inserting it in there it only seeks to farther prove he wasn't as weak as you're implying.
But yes, let's take your point as a fact. The Odinsleep is definitely a factor in Aaron's Thor. OK, and let's assume it works the exact same way, ie when his power wanes he needs to go into the Odinsleep to replenish it. Now, what exactly would not needing to go into the Odinsleep prove exactly in this case considering the 70 plus years of how canon the Odinsleep is? Well, I may not be a rocket pedophile, but this seems to tell me that Thor currently doesn't need the Odinsleep. That Thor's power hasn't waned enough to go into the Odinsleep. That the Odinsleep has been a complete non factor in every appearance he's been shown in. That's what that tells me anyway. But apparently Thor not needing to go into the Odinsleep tells you that he actually needs it? That doesn't make sense to me personally, but apparently it does to you.
And on the Galactus red herring you keep bringing up. If Galactus doesn't need to feed, then I assume he isn't at hungry levels. If Odin doesn't need to sleep, I assume he's not weakened. If Galactus needs to eat, I assume he's weakened. If Odin needs to sleep, I assume he's weakened. It's simple really. I'd like it if you stop highlighting points for me though. Apparently you want to argue with everyone who doesn't fit into your Thor ideology.
Well, if we shouldn't jump to conclusions, then naturally we should assume Thor needed the Odinsleep...
But I digress. Not sure what I jumped to conclusions on there, but sure, look at me leap.
Again, you can either look at it as Galactus, or you can look at it as a completely separate being who can take many shots unshielded from someone who had Gorr rethink his life with one shot. Either way, it's impressive.
But I take we don't care about Young Thor anymore? And all of this is more about trying to prove King Thor was weakened against Galactus it seems? Tsk tsk tsk. You assume I care about that fight too much it seems. What I really want to talk about is why exactly people try to downgrade Gorr by saying King Thor was weakened, even before Galactus was an afterthought in this arc. It seems counter productive to me, but as long as King Thor has an excuse against Galactus, we can throw Gorr under the bus...
Stabbing thor makes razor sharp ice shards (which were as stated in the comic) ultra-mega-super-duper durable? The ice wasn't even that durable as Storm and Gambit were taking out the snowmen which created those shards.
(please log in to view the image)
Sometimes I wonder, are you for real?
We're on a good track. So weaker than herc, is he as strong as Namor or stronger?
Yes. You just posted a scan of them trapping Wolverine and cutting him in places where he should have an Adamantium skeleton breaking them off.
Yes, Abhilighend. Solidified ice is usually more durable then snow. Not to mention attacks thrown by Mystique would be more powerful then snowmen fodder she created.
This is narrow to you? Err... (please log in to view the image)
Anyways, Young Thor is not restricted to a single narrow attack. He can strike multiple targets with multiple bolts and not unlike Orm's attack on the JLA. She is not blocking them easily. (please log in to view the image)
Of course an ice attack from a death seed Iceman would be more powerful than from a regular Bobby.
Of course you wouldn't think it was impressive. I'm not surprised at all. And yet he stalemated that Gorr from the past..
Gorr has clearly increased in power throughout the years not to mention the experience he's gained also. It's understood since god blood feeds the Annihiblade. He even thanked Thor for teaching him a valuable lesson after their early encounters.
Sure, the highest level of Skyfather. What ever you prefer. Just as long as it is clear there exists no evidence to support him being at full power.
I didn't bring up his feats as evidence of him being diminished. If I wanted to do that, I'd note how he can't fly, create life etc. or do much more then blast stuff (Along with enhanced stats) in this weakened state.
The fact that the Odin Force was completely drained and he has not yet entered the Odin Sleep. Tapping into some hidden internal reserve does not rejuvenate the rest of his energies.
This is why I wanted to drop it. I almost feel asleep reading this wall of text just to repeat myself for the fifth time.
No, again you are speculating about completely unsupported stuff. All we know was that the Odin Force drained, he regained some portion of it and he has not yet entered the Odin Sleep.
I'm saying that he IS weak. Why is he not prioritizing entering the Odin Sleep? I'm not sure, maybe he's stubborn, perhaps we'll find out later on that he was doing all he could to put it off. Perhaps through the power of hope and belief, he regained all his power and then some. Who knows?
All I DO know is what has been printed on panel and so far, based on what we know of the Odin Force, King Thor being at full power is not possible.
All this word play and you still seem to gloss over the simple fact that the Odin Force was thought to be completely drained and he has yet to enter the Odin Sleep. Not highlighting that he does need to enter the Odin Sleep does not automatically mean he is no longer weakened or that the other evidence vanishes. Your reasoning for him regaining all of his power legitimately makes no sense based on what we know of the Odin Force. There is a big difference between will power reigniting some energy and restoring all his stores.
We KNOW that Odin Force can only fully rejuvenate through the Odin Sleep. We also however know that Odin Force wielders can put off the Odin Sleep for incredibly long periods of time but it is dangerous and their power continues to wane.
Do you not understand that for over 900 years, he was completely bereft of the power? Failure clouding his mind and suppressing some makes sense. It magically returning in full however is an entirely different leap.
The comic made it very clear that the Odin Force was in fact drained preceding his fight with Gorr. This isn't rocket science.
I care, I just realize the futility of discussing something when your mind is already made up.
My position has been that King Thor was weakened from the get go, his fight with Galactus is irrelevant to my stance. Although I'd wager it has a lot to do with yours.
You seem to think my stance will somehow change because Gorr won't look as good. It won't. And people lowballed Gorr because they didn't think that this Thor was particularly powerful due to his condition. Which is silly as weakened or not, an Odin Force wielder is crazy powerful. Further supported by his fight against Galactus.
Wut? You're saying the ice was harder than adamantium? Next you would say that random arrows from HAND ninjas are more durable than adamantium because they go through logan's body where adamantium is supposed to be.
Yes rage.of.gamma, the ice attack from the ice constructs were more durable than the constructs themselves. And those are the same constructs like which were getting blown up by storm and Gambit. In fact you posted the same scan as I did. And Mystique was just gesturing, the snowmen created those shards. And Bobby made the ice constructs facing Thor extra durable, because why not?
There are so many things wrong with this post, it ain't even funny.
List all the high feats from Bobby while you're at it, why don't you? But I get it since it pierced Thor, it was harder than adamantium.
And Namor would beat DCnU diana then I guess?
The attack which took out Gorr was definitely not wide.
He can target practice, she only has to block the lightning coming to her way.
I am learning new things everyday. Apparently that ice shard cut through adamantium as Rage put it.
And of course you'd find it so impressive. It was done by Thor after all.
So what I'm getting this that Gorr started at an unknown power level where a single bolt of lightning took him out and then he was stomping three Thors. That somehow means taking a young Gorr so impressive. Gotcha.
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Apr 20th, 2014 08:13 PM
He killed two black berserkers. In the same issue, current Thor was dropping like a dozen of them at the same time. King Thor even without the Odin Force was taking on like hundreds of them although he was ultimately defeated. 
Not to mention attacks thrown by Mystique would be more powerful then snowmen fodder she created.
