Eonwe WAS the leader; and Fionwe WILL BE the leader in the Final Battle of the world. Manwe will just sit around lazily
No Fionwe leads the army of the Final Battle (and beside him Túrin, his sword cursed by the serpents of Morgoth ), Tolkien says so. Fionwe started the battle and Fionwe led the armies.
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Though I know it's a dodgy (at times) source...
From Unfinished Tales p. 413.
"Manwe will not descend from the Mountain until the Dagor Dagorath, and the coming of the End, when Melkor returns. To the overthrow of Morgoth he sent his herald Eonwe. To the defeat of Sauron would he not then send some lesser (but mighty) spirit of the angelic people, one coeval and equal, doubtless, with Sauron in their beginnings, but not more? Olorin was his name. But of Olorin we shall never know more than he revealed in Gandalf."
I see Manwe as the head of things, who will send Eonwe as his wacky sidekick to take care of preliminary things (much as he sent Gandalf to take care of Sauron), before Manwe himself descends from Mount Taniquetil to take care of the final enstallment of the epic battle.
The key difference here isn't that Manwe is behind it all (he also was at the War of the Ring), but that he eventually descends to take care of things himself.
Thats what I said
Him sending Eonwe means he doesnt lead the armies himself
But I admit that ive ignored that sentence, concentrating on - how was it? I have no english version of the lost tales here, something like - Fionwe will start the battle in his wrath and grief about Ariens/Urwens death, and
Túrin Turambar will stand next to him in the Battle of Battles and so on
stating that it was really eonwe commanding the others and wanting this battle (not melkor who just kept throwing the stars into the sea and stuff)
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Of course he wasn't, but as that chapter ("The Istari") states, he was the one who sent the wizards to fight Sauron. Possibly, he was also the force that sent Gandalf back to middle-earth after his battle with the balrog, and that was what I said.
I won't say that I'm not open to ideas, but considering what I've seen, Manwe is the big boss of it all. It might come down to interpretation in the end, but as was also stated ("Manwe will not descend from the Mountain until the Dagor Dagorath"), Manwe will descend from his dwelling once the time of the final battle arrives, and him descending MUST imply some greater parttaking than just sitting around watching the eagles. He does send Eonwe to take command of HIS forces (much as Bush would send some high-ranking yahoos to commands US troops in Iraq), but that doesn't change that he descends himself (something that Bush didn't). That is active involvement. That is not "sitting around".
We can only speculate what he will do once he descends, but remembering that Melkor/Morgoth is as powerfull as he is, one might need someone of equal power to truly challenge his existence. Especially considering Tolkiens taste for the epic tales, I strongly feel that everybody (apart from Iluvatar himself) would take part in this battle that will destroy Arda, much as they took part in it's creation.
Didn't he die in the first age?? Being man, does he incarnate? If you could just point me in a direction (chapter or something) I'd be grateful.
Last edited by FreddieFreeload on Jan 23rd, 2004 at 10:40 PM
Yes he did but in Valinor he and Nienor first of men were allowed to bathe in the dew of the sun / laurelin, love between brother and sister now "becoming pure" and stuff, i dunno the exact page but its in the last few paragraphs of the chapter about Túrin in the lost tales.
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So do they join the rest of men, when they leave the world at the unmaking of arda???
What exactly does that prove/have to do with the topic at hand?
If indeed Melkor was the most powerful of all, I think that it is even less concievable that he could be destroyed without the aid of Manwe...
Who... descended... D-e-s-c-e-n-d-e-d
He joined the fight...
We can only speculate what he will do once he descends, but remembering that Melkor/Morgoth is as powerfull as he is, one might need someone of equal power to truly challenge his existence
^^but manwe is NOT as strong as melkor^^
and he decended...all he may have done is speak to a few peeps about the war?
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Thank you so much Eezy!!
I'm starting over, do not mistake me for my brother - he has left. Eezy has convinced me to come back, give him some credit.
I'd might do some more on this some other day, but for now, I've presented my evidence. I'm confident that in thousands of years when the harddrive that stores this debate is found, i will be considered one of the greatest minds of our time.
Last edited by FreddieFreeload on Jan 23rd, 2004 at 10:59 PM
Exactly. Why should Manwe attack Morgoth? He has no real reason. I mean he never really cares about the pplz in Middleearth (save drowning Númenor... ha ha... s'pose that was for his own fun), why should he care about Morgoth caring for them? Why should he care about Morgoth trying to understand Men (though for selfish reasons)?
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), Tolkien says so. Fionwe started the battle and Fionwe led the armies.
Jan 23rd, 2004 08:43 PM
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