Well in scan he actually holds both universes in his bare hands. Now, did he acutally held them and would simply replace them or it was only shown what he wanted to do or he actually literally held them. We can't know, but anyway, I have no doubt he could have done it extremely easily.
LT also recreated abstracts with a gesture when they were destroyed by IG. Eternity was also among them. I give that feat above what WPOTC did.
Adam repels some M Bodies and then LT restores order.
They aren't shown being disintegrated, just repelled in the shockwave and LT snaps his fingers and theyre standing back in their places.
Doesnt show LT is greater than the IG. What it does indicate is a superiority to the abstracts and cosmics present, but that was never in any doubt from myself.
However he later had to talk Adam out of fighting him as opposed to just taking the IG against his will, as that would have necessitated a reality destroying struggle, thereby indicating LTs power isnt significantly greater than the IG.
Likely greater? By his status and the high regard hes held in yes
Far greater?By this very instance and his lack of impressive feats
Xp you need to learn to properly analyse the scenes. Where do you see LT conclusively holding two universes?
We see him holding two M bodies, representations of the timeline of both universes. Not the actual physical matter and energy of the universe as Jean Grey just one of the many hosts the Phoenix Force empowers across existence did
You are entitled to believe what you wish, but until you have actual feats displaying your point conclusively, your belief alone is not enough here.
Where do you see the abstracts being destroyed. All we see is them being repelled by a shockwave of energy. No statement or subsequent comic panel confirmed that they were destroyed before LT restored order therefore that is just your assumption. Not good enough.
Even if Adam did destroy them and LT recreated them, that still isnt beyond what the White Crown Phoenix has achieved and certainly below the Phoenix Force. They were mere M bodies as stated on panel. Not the actual entities themselves. As ive told you before, dont just go by scans someone else has posted, get hold of the comic and read the appropriate scene in context otherwise you just end up making errors like this one.
They all fall, but him, which already shows he is above them in power.
LT just wanted to avoid collateral damage with the battle and he's kept the gems from working and being united again in the IG. As far as I'm concerned, he's already shown he is above the IG by feats.
Im sorry, you dont appear to be reading my comments properly. None of this is relevant to what i said.
Did i or did i not say that this instance marks him as greater than the abstracts and that there was never any doubt about that in my mind?
Furthermore your statement about LT not wanting collateral damage is true, but the same is true for Adam. Thats the very reason why LT was able to talk him out of a battle.
However the fact that he couldn't just completely punk Adam and take it just like that, the fact that it would require a titanic struggle shows as i stated previously that he is not significantly more powerful than the IG if at all.
Nothing you've presented affects my original point that LT does not have any feats to support his status. He does not have any feats to beat Jean Greys best and lets not even bother bringing the Phoenix Force into this.
Preventing the functioning of an inanimate object is not impressive and does not mark LT as greater than a manned IG. If LT could have just disabled the IG like that when Adam was using it, he wouldve. He had to talk him out of a titanic struggle. Which shows that the IG had to be unmanned and therefore effectively a brick and that LT is not greater than an IG wielder by any significant margin.
"Dont get me wrong, im not saying LT isnt top in all respects, im just saying that if hes also top in power as suggested, then it hasnt been verified conclusively on panel. Only hinted at by the reverence the abstracts hold him in.
Hes the top dog and highest authority beneath the supreme being and yet he lacks feats. That cant be successfully argued against its 100% true."
He does have on panel feats that show he is more powerfull than all the other abstratcs. He tanked the blast that blew them all out.
Even with all the gems, Richards couldnt erase tehm from reality or neutralize their power, bu the LT turned them off effortlessly.
That was only their M-Bodies. Just like when Maelstrom thought he "killed" Anomaly but he only destroyed it's M-Body. I even think one of the Celestials wasn't knocked back and was on his feet fighting the blast.
When was this? I'm interested in the issue.
And even then it means nothing. The Gems only stopped working because Adam willingly submitted himself to the judgment.
GS is correct. They were only M bodies. If it was totatlity, IG would have nothing on it.
For LT, I said, maybe he was holding both universes in his bare hands and would simply replace them or was just shown what he wanted to do (a visualization). It's what GS said, M bodies.
Anyway, if he wanted to replace them, like he had in mind, he would have done it. No doubt about it. I think he would just simply replace them. The point is that all in all, it was hinted he would replace them himself and the point is they hinted he was capable of it (we just don't know how).
I don't even want to debate about if LT is above IG. It's clear he is. The problem sometimes here on KMC is that ''If not for a feat, no proof and it doesn't matter what you tell'', especially when considering LT, when he is regarded by Marvel as the top tog only second to TOAA.
I know you said that you are not arguing that LT might be the top dog, but then you also saying that LT may no be above IG at all based on that and that. I see it as pointless.
If LT literally wouldn't be above IG, then no matter what PF has done, he would be regadred automatically by Marvel below IG. Simple as that. Feats wouldn't matter.
And wasn't there a time when LT actually again just said and IG was again powered up, working again?
Only because someone like Eternity wasn't in it's totatlity, that is why, he was blasted.
Not to argue, of course LT is still above them.
Thanos with THOTI said it himself that Living Tribunal is the top of the food chain, saying the Living Tribunal si the highest. It was clear Thanos regared him as greatest of all.
And I want to see Phoenix being in battles when greatest powers in MU are involved (as in case such as Protege and THOTI).
Do writers simply forget it or they just think it has no place in there with them.
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Last edited by Xplosive on Oct 16th, 2010 at 05:34 AM
LT still did something someone with all the gems cant do. more thant that, what makes you claim LT could only turn them off because AW submited? The story shows they both wanted to avoid colateral damage. thsi proves LT would have a hard time taking it from him by farce, but not that he couldnt do it.
This proves nothing really. Where was Oblivion/Death/Infinity/Anomaly (I mean this guy was immune to the Infinity Gauntlet)/Inbetweener( he's immune to the Infinity Gems)/Vishanti etc... in cases like the Protege or the Infinity Gauntlet affair?
Where were the Infinites during the THOTI fiasco? They dwarfed Eternity in size and power.
Why the hell was "Hawk God" and the Beyonder (who's half a Cosmic Cube) involved in the Protege business? Why did the Living Tribunal need to draw power from The Eye of Agamotto to banish the Protege (I mean the Vishanti are nobodies right since they were never involved in any "cosmic" encounter)?
Why risk "collateral damage" if he could turn them off without Adam submitting? Because he couldn't do it until Adam submitted himself to the LT's judgment.
That may be true but we'll never know. The fact is he couldn't "shut them down" without Adam's consent though. That's what GS and I were trying to say.
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..even the outer hells are indifferent matters for they bow only to potent and archaic Nodens.
Wandas warp was global however in creating House of M on Earth she changed events in history and affected people who have interacted with intergalactic races and beings therefore her alteration had a knock on effect of indirectly affecting reality on a universal scale, despite only directly warping Earth.
Thats why you get references to the scale of the warp being global numerous times as well as references to her affecting the whole universe:
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