You are putting words in my mouth. I never claimed that Manwë and Morgoth would go head to head, but for some reason you get that impression. Because I wrote "one might need someone of equal power to truly challenge his existence" (granting that the equal power isn't 100% correct), doesn't mean that they´ll have some great fistfight.
The following quote does state that it will not be Manwë that will be the end of Melkor/Morgoth, but Eonwë. From The Hiding of Valinor:
To confuse ourselves even more, the prophecy of the last battle states that it is Turin who will destroy Morgoth. From the early sketch of the Silmarillion:
And a very similar piece from the Shaping of Middle-Earth confirms that Turin will do the job:
It seems, that Tolkien must have considered it possible for both Turin and Eonwë to kill Morgoth (why Manwë then couldn't have done the same is beyond me), though, Eonwë get's to do the honourable task in the final version of the Battle.
In the Silmarillion Turin get's to kill a dragon instead:
However, that does not diminish the role of Manwë in the entire thing.
"Manwe will not descend from the Mountain until the Dagor Dagorath, and the coming of the End, when Melkor returns".
If Manwë descends from his Mountain onto the plains of Aman (where the battle takes place) it must have some great significance, especially, if he does it at the time that Melkor returns.
Let's take a look at a few undebateable facts:
1. Manwë sends Eonwë to take care of The First Dark Lord.
2. Manwë sends The Istari to take care of The Second Dark Lord
3. Manwë sends Eonwë again to take care of The First Dark Lord when he returns.
4. Manwë descends from his mountain when the final battle arrives.
It seems obvious to me, that Manwë is the source of resistance against Morgoth, and as such the battle is more a matter of Manwë vs. Morgoth, than of any of his minions vs. Morgoth, though many of them have BIG parts to play in the battle aswell (like killing him).
Last edited by FreddieFreeload on Jan 26th, 2004 at 12:30 PM
So, we have reached some sort of common ground? (I ask because if that is not the case, I must have misunderstood what you meant.)
So in conclusion
Yes, Eonwë will be the one who, with Turin and Tulkas at his side, destroys Morgoth (and the world along with him).
Yes, Manwë is the man behind the force against Morgoth, and does more than just watchin eagles.
Yeah I think we reached such a common ground... I think the confusion was just that we misunderstood what each other meant with his statements.
And thanks again for clearing that Túrin-thingy up
__________________ Life is complex: it has both real and imaginary components.
The rest of the sentence FreddieFreeload quoted says more about the Last Battle, though not much:
"After the triumph of the Gods, Eärendel sailed still in the seas of heaven, but the Sun scorched him and the Moon hunted him in the sky... Then the Valar drew his white ship Wingelot over the land of Valinor, and they filled it with radiance and hallowed it, and launched it through the Door of Night. And long Eärendel set sail into the starless vast, Elwing at his side, the Silmaril upon his brow, voyaging the Dark behind the world, a glimmering and fugitive star. And ever and anon he returns and shines behind the courses of the Sun and Moon above the ramparts of the Gods, brighter than all other stars, the mariner of the sky, keeping watch against Morgoth upon the confines of the world. Thus shall he sail until he sees the Last Battle fought upon the plains of Valinor.
Thus spake the prophecy of Mandos, which he declared in Valmar at the judgment of the Gods, and the rumour of it was whispered among all the Elves of the West: when the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth shall come back through the Door out of the Timeless Night; and he shall destroy the Sun and the Moon, but Eärendel shall come upon him as a white flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the last battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Melko, and on his right shall stand Fionwë and on his left Túrin Turambar, son of Húrin, Conqueror of Fate; and it shall be the black sword of Túrin that deals unto Melko his death and final end; and so shall the Children of Húrin and all men be avenged.
Thereafter shall the Silmarils be recovered out of sea and earth and air; for Earendil shall descend and yield up that flame that he hath had in keeping. Then Fëanor shall bear the Three and yield their fire to rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth; and the Mountains of Valinor shall be levelled, so that the light goes out over all the world. In that light the Gods will again grow young, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Ilúvatar be fulfilled concerning them. But of Men in that day the prophecy speaks not, save of Túrin only, and him it names among the Gods."
__________________ Life is complex: it has both real and imaginary components.
come a little closer and say that. (please log in to view the image)(please log in to view the image)(please log in to view the image)(please log in to view the image)
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Jan 26th, 2004 12:12 PM
Heehee!
