Xp i have told you this already and i do not want to repeat this.
The brothers were retconned into reality creators which that very issue said were created jointly by LT and the Spectre.
Furthermore once again you have misinterpreted an official statement. The description from the handbook doesnt say a megaverse is bigger than a multiverse, because it isnt.
A megaverse is a grouping for realities that do not share the same cosmology (abstracts/cosmic and mystical hierarchical structure) that all the realities within the main multiverse share. Examples would be the New Universe and Shadowline. However as these realities are more closely tied to Marvel and its multiverse, the term Megaverse was coined to refer to these realities and categorize them as Marvel property as opposed to them being linked to another comic companies multiverse.
However with the Marvel Vs DC crossover both companies multiverses were featured as each one of the Brothers. However the retcon saw that story as being ignored with the Brothers instead being demoted to guardians of each companies megaverse(comic properties that are outside their main multiverses but still tied to either marvel or dc). Thats what the handbook means, its letting you know that one Brother is guardian of Marvels megaverse, one of DC's(hence the joint collaboration between Spectre and LT making them) and with one megaverse being tied to Marvel and one being tied to DC they therefore encompass more than a single multiverse. These vaguely related comic properties encompass two, Marvels multiverse and DC's.
I've made that simple enough to understand. Please do not refer to the Brothers as megaverses again.
Please do not misinterpret official statements and tell me the megaverse is bigger than the multiverse.
The writer gave nothing. Starlin wrote Eternity in character, an arrogant being. Just because Eternity claims his so called totality wasn't going to be affected, it doesn't mean it's true.
So you're claiming Ziran is greater than Eternity. Good luck with that one. Especially considering Ziran is merely a foot soldier of Eternity. And what did Nightmare do to Eternity? If i recalled correctly, Eternity was in no harm and owned the hell out of Nightmare and an empowered Juggernaut. And atleast it's a fear lord and not some Shi'Ar tech. lol
So you believe Ziran > Eternity, Chaos, Order, and Galactus. I get it now.
He stopped it mid attack and said let order be restored to this court and Warlock's like how? lol. Just because it went from one page to another doesn't mean the attack ended. If you can't follow the transitioning between panels and pages then why bother reading comic books?
Yeah for you then. He still gain power that allowed him to shut off the gods and extra-dimensional deities link with Earth.
Only you would argue that nonsense. Warlock had only begun attacking the court. It went from one panel of an omidirectional attack to the next panel with LT snapping his fingers and ended the attack, reversing it's affect. Where are you getting this nonsense he did after the fact? Because it shift from one panel to the next showing ONLY LT's hand? That's your proof?
He did make Surfer into a universe. He turned Surfer into a universe - an entire cosmos inside of him. Not the same thing.
Not much shown? He held two architects/creator of realities in his hand. What has Phoenix shown on panel that's comparable?
It's powers did nothing to aid it's host that's for sure. A what portion are you talking about? Would you like to bring actual evidence on panel saying were just avatars that were torn into two, beaten back by the Ultra Force/X-Men, or shattered into a billion pieces? I want actual references, not speculations.
Because he acts surprise despite knowing the outcome. He outright admitted it that he knew of the outcome when the court began due to his omniscience and still time and time again he acts surprise despite knowing the outcome. He's as cocky as Eternity is, but he wasn't going to win that fight and he knew it. He kept pushing things despite his omniscience but when push came to shove and the Tribunal ruled and was willing to fight for it despite wrecking reality, Warlock wasn't going to go through it because he knew of the outcome and it wasn't going to be him that won.
Yeah, it tells you LT would've have to fight for it. But hey, the only one who looked like a chump was Warlock when LT stopped his attack. And under the same writer, LT did not intervene when Thanos had the Gauntlet due to a technicality. That should tell you something about how Starlin felt regarding the Tribunal.
So did Korvac escape? Well okay then.
Nope. Xorn shattered the PF into a billion pieces and killed it's host. He didn't kill the Force. Like shown before, an alien ship separated the Phoenix Force into two versions of itself. The bad showing is it's failure to protect it's host and the fact that it gets manipulated and dragged about the cosmos by alien weaponry. Galactus was going to kill the Phoenix Force and hence why stars began fading. If it was just Rachel he was killing, nothing would happen to the universe because other host have died before including it's main host Jean. Jean is still in her graves for 6 years now and no stars even blinked at her death.
Yes, that it was the bases of the universe. The wellspring of life. But that's life. Because these particles hold sway over the soul, the mind, time, the void, the concept of order, the concept of chaos, love, hate, and the dead right? This same power source that the Phoenix draws upon somehow puts it above the judge of multiverses and servant to one who's above even the gods right? That's nice statement for you to up Phoenix's feat but when all was said and done Kubik and Kosmos marveled at the Tribunal who he says is the most Supreme Power. A being that exist simaltanouesly in all MULTIVERSES. Phoenix did what now??
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Last edited by WhiteWitchKing on Oct 19th, 2010 at 04:43 AM
Please read up on the Phoenix if youre going to debate about the character.
The full Phoenix in appearance or power has never been shown on panel. As the Big Bang of reality if it gathered its entirety in one place then there would be a void because the Big Bang is all.
The full Phoenix never got defeated by ultraforce and the x-men, the firebird as stated on panel, many, many times is an avatar of the Phoenix Force. It is not the Phoenix Force in its totality, but instead a representation.
When you see the firebird, you know that in most cases thats the sentience of the Force itself in operation as opposed to just a host using its power. However the firebird is just a mere manifestation of the Force. Far from all of it.
The Shiar ship blew up an already shattered(by Xorn) avatar of the Force, it reconstituted the cosmic avatar within reality and as stated shattered that which was already in bits.
However the Force as stated is mutable, indestructible cosmic life force. You cant destroy the Force it is by canon completely indestructible.
Its firebird avatars are mutable cosmic energy and can divide into multiples:
Raw energy cant be destroyed, it just goes from state to state.
Each one of these firebirds is still the Phoenix Force by name, so as shown in this ultraforce crossover and titles such as Endsong and Warsong, the firebird is just a manifestation of the Force and there can be many in operation simultaneously each with varying degrees of power. The full Phoenix Force has never had a bad showing, only avatars and distracted hosts.
Exactly, like when he trapped Korvac but unlike when the Phoenix Force getting shattered into a billion pieces. Talk about humiliation.
But hey, let's use those handbooks you love to bring up so much. From the X-Men: Phoenix Force Handbook 2010. Talk about humiliating getting captured and used as a fuel source from some alien ship. Getting shattered into a billion pieces by Xorn. Being a celestial element, one of the primal forces of the cosmos and nowhere does it say that the PF is the top being. Then there's that part about the stars dying as Galactus was destroying the PF and not Rachel. Powerful as it maybe, the Phoenix Force has among the worse record for among cosmic forces. Especially all those time when it's injured and going crazy from one reason or another and either running to the White Hot Room or hiding in a host while it heals itself.
It doesn't mean it's false either. This statement was given before the Tribunal and the Cosmic court (he even said "Let the court note..."). They'd know if he was lying so bravado would be pointless.
The Celestials don't have M-bodies, just like Galactus and Eon and Stranger. So out of the assembled M-bodies of abstracts and non abstracts only the Celestial stood it's ground vs Adam's titty fit. Shown on panel so it's not even disputable. Galactus was hurl away upside down with one of his "horns" shattered.
Yes Ziran > M-bodies of abstracts present at the Cosmic Court and the non abstracts like Galactus/Stranger/Eon/etc...
No the attack was over. He then restored order to his court. He didn't stop the attack. Just undid the damage.
Big deal S'ym and the Goblin Queen did that in another dimension too. It's not that big a deal.
No it was a quick burst of power. He was swatting them away. You can even check the issue again if you don't believe me.
The Tribunal, assuming he saw the blast coming, didn't stop it and waited till Warlock finished, then restored order.
Prove he did! He just asked him if he wanted a taste of Godhood then we see the surfer with stars and galaxies in his face. The PF has done that to Mastermind twice, once when Jean was Dark Phoenix and the other time as Rachel Summers.
Held 616 in her hand and destroyed an entire timeline, on panel.
What's to speculate?
Galactus was killing the PF in that issue of Exaclibur when he was separating it from Rachel (resulting in all the stars in creation winking out of existence) according to you earlier in another thread.
vs
Xorn "killing" the PF with no repercussions to the universe happening.
Which is it? They both can't be right.
I think you are reading it wrong. I think the writers were saying that Warlock knew it would come down to a fight and if it did reality would be wrecked and that ultimately he wasn't that "type of god". So he willing gave up the gauntlet.
The fact that the LT had to get the IG wielder's permission to rule against them working in unison, should tell you something about the IG.
Was Korvac trying to escape? No? Ok then.
See above.
Uhm you didn't get it then. The PF doesn't get it's power from stars, it's the "mother of stars" and has been refered to as such a few times. The scans GS provided states that Big Bang = PF.
Do you know what the term "principalities" referred to in Kubik's quote? The various beings Kubik introduces Kosmos to in their journey are the "principalities" of creation. And he said the first and in many ways the greatest of the principalities was? You guessed it
Here he actually holds a blast that would destroy galaxies and you bring supernova, which he only triggered and never attacked Korvac directly. What Korvac survived was power of the star, not Living Tribunal direct assault or his personal power.
Korvac wasn't killed, because Living Tribunal didn't choose to kill him and never attacked him directly. Living Tribunal judgment was to seal him and thus disconnecting Universe from a Multiverse.
And even why Korvac survived Nova, was only because he was protected by Death.
And Phoenix Force chose to listen. It had no other choice.
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Last edited by Xplosive on Oct 19th, 2010 at 08:06 AM
BIG difference from your misinterpretation. It states plain as day "It also knows that for the sake of the multiverse it must TODAY heed the Tribunals wishes"
The Phoenix was not forced into anything, the "two forces of nature" spoke and the Phoenix decided that LT was right and so as stated it chose to listen to him for that day at least.
So you think Phoenix Force would do what THOTI did? Ok. Don't go over your head.
No, what I meant wasn't because of misinterpretation. I said that because of ''What do you think would happen if Pheonix Force would chose not to listen, when Living Tribunal appeared and said what he said?''.
Yeah, big trouble for it.
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Last edited by Xplosive on Oct 19th, 2010 at 04:17 PM
It's not pointless. Them knowing doesn't prevent the action from being taken. Even LT tells Eternity that knowing doesn't mean it prevents them from acting the way they do. Hence why, Warlock is shocked by the trial despite knowing it's outcome. How hard is that to understand? How can it be nonexistence when the an incomplete Gauntlet was merging two universe together later on? Furthermore, that was just one attack. You make that sound as if that's the only thing Warlock can muster up when in fact the Gauntlet has owned the abstracts on put them in worse shape. If Warlock was to wreck the entire universe, the result would not be nonexistent. Some reasoning there.
First off, Celestials use M-bodies as well. The operate in normal space by manifesting bodies while there true self exist in another dimension. Secondly, even the physical entities use M-bodies when they want to appear somewhere without attending. This was pointed out to Quasar regarding Galactus and the Stranger.
So then I take that ask you admitting that the attacked wiped the floors with everyone in the court except for the Tribunal and Ziran. Quite a feat to then for Ziran and another consistent showing for the Tribunal. Another good feat for the Tribunal and the highest feat for Ziran. LT > Ziran still because he just sat there and ignored it. In the second instance, he also stood in the direct affects of the Gauntlet and passed judgment on Warlock while Ziran braced himself with both arms trying to block the affects.
And your proof is? Thought so. You and probably GS are the only one desperate enough to make such an argument. Either way, he reversed the damage. How many people can you count that could reverse the IG's affect? You see broken horn and abstracts flung about and with gesture everything was as before. Warlock's attempt to attack the court because he "shall not surrender it (IG) to noone" and he'll "not tolerate such an effrontery" was met and dealt with. He attempted to end the trial because they should not "dare to judge him". How'd go Warlock?
LT *snaps finger*
LT: Let order be restored to this court.
Warlock: How??
Let's see Ziran do that!
lol. Not a big deal to shut off the gods access to Earth? It was a big enough deal that the Skyfathers bowed before the Celestials when they threatened that. S'ym and Goblin Queen doing that is still a big deal even if you don't want to admit it.
Where does it say any of that? Warlock states that he will not be judge. Then says he won't suffer this effrontery of being judged and so he attacks the entire court. Then came after he says he won't surrender the Gauntlet to anyone and attacked Eternity for bringing him to trial. He did not wanted to be judge by the court and attacked everyone. To his surprise, LT stopped his attack and restored everything so the trial could continue despite Warlock's attempt at ending it his own way. Nice try to blatantly ignored what's happening in the story.
You see a swirling cluster that's represents a big bang and an expanding of the universe until it becomes one inside Surfer. It's right before you but it's my fault if you chose to ignore it. Either way, it's still a high-end feat. If you want to exclude that then exclude that from Phoenix's feats list as well. The Tribunal still has far more better feats.
The Tribunal held two creators of realities in his hand, each a megaverse. As for destroying timelines, a non-abstract called Warlock also did the same thing. Nice feat, but nothing the IG or LT can't do.
He was killing the Phoenix Force in Excalibur. He wasn't trying to kill Rachel because that was your argument. Xorn killed Jean Grey and shattered the Phoenix Force by doing so. They can't be both right because Xorn wasn't killing the Phoenix Force. Are you just ignorant of both stories? The Phoenix Force has been torn into two versions of itself. It's been hurt and weakened but that's not the same as getting vaporized by Galactus.
Since you enjoy using handbooks so much, here is what it says.
Galactus was destroying the Phoenix Force itself and was wrecking the cosmos as a result.
"However, when he began discorporating Rachel, stars across the galaxy began to die, apparently proving that destroying the Phoenix Force would be destroying the living embodiment of a primal force." (please log in to view the image)
Xorn kills Jean Grey and shatters the force - not kill it.
"Later, the Force returned to Earth 616 once more and manifested itself in Jean Grey, who had been freed from the cocoon. Shortly after, she was killed by an electromagnetic pulse by Kuan-Yin Xorn, a mutant posing as Magneto. Grey's death shattered the Force into a billion pieces. While incubating in the core of creation known as the White Hot Room, the Force was ripped back to reality by a device that reconstituted it as part of the Shi'Ar's plan to destroy the Force forever."
He has the Infinity Gauntlet. Restoring reality wasn't a problem because he was it's supreme being. The whole time he wanted to keep it. How does he win against a multiversal judge that was never affected by his power and still pass judgement on him despite his threats? Like I said, the only thing to be wrecked if they fought was the cosmos, eventually Warlock, and his reputation/honor. Like Luke Cage getting into a fight with Gladiator.
That ruling was regarding Warlock being unfit to wield the Gauntlet, not the gems working in unison. Please pay attention He wanted to know if Warlock would submit to the judgement the he could no longer be the wielder. Nowhere does he ask permission of Warlock to submit to his ruling that the gems would not work in unison. The entire line is made up by you. LT never attempted to do so because that wasn't what the trial was about. Warlock's Gauntlet still worked after he submitted to the judgement and used it to find new guardians of the gems.
And you're still clinging to this one thing huh? I don't have to bother by this point because we both know Korvac survived a nova while the Force was shattered into a billion pieces and ended up in the White Hot Room to heal itself while it's host is dead and still dead by an planetary electromagnetic pulse. When the Phoenix Force falls on it's face, it's host end up in a grave. lol
lol. And you point is? The Phoenix Force is living embodiment of a primal force. It being the representation of the big bang doesn't equate it to having power over any of the other abstracts. Ever heard of Entropy? Oblivion and Death have nothing to do with the Phoenix Force. Just because you keep saying it is the big bang doesn't mean jack when the same Force has been beaten down and dragged about by things far lesser in power than the other abstracts.
In many ways the greatest. Meaning in many different regards it can be viewed as the greatest because stars produce planets, moons, and energy from which life can grow. In many ways its the greatest but not the greatest. That supreme being is LT and Kubik even spells it out for you. If the Force is so powerful as you believe, then why is it that a Shi'Ar device dragged it out of it's realm? It got shattered. Galactus was going to kill it. The big bang means nothing to a being that exist in all multiverses and holds creators/architects/megaverses in his hand. When someone possessing the power of Marvel's supreme being (TOAA) show up and claim the Phoenix Force is at the top of the power hierarchy, then you've got something.
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Last edited by WhiteWitchKing on Oct 20th, 2010 at 09:39 AM
The only point I made was that Eternity said he could have tanked that Warlock blast if that had been his actuality and not just an M-Body. That's it. Eternity himself must remember that not a few days ago, an IG wielder owned them all when he really cared to.
That blast wasn't a "killing" blast, it was like his later attack, a "begone you annoy me" blast.
What was Qusar's exact quote? Because if true then according to on panel evidence Ziran's "M-body" held his ground while the other M-bodies were thrown around like rag dolls.
If, according to you, they are all M-bodies, what difference does it make ultimately? Since it wasn't the actuality of any of the participants?
No one said Ziran is a match for the IG. What I find amusing now is, if everyone present was just an M-body (as you say, since not even "Galactus" present was the real Galactus), then the LT's feat is pointless.
My point was Korvac shutting off access to earth wasn't unique or an indicator of power. So are S'ym and the Goblin Queen = Arshiem = Korvac because they accomplished this "feat"?
Warlock wasn't out for blood. He was pissed that they didn't trust him with the IG. If he wanted to wtfpwn them he could have easily. Just as Thanos did earlier. We've also seen that the LT couldn't just shut the Gems off if the wielder didn't submit to his judgment.
Big Bang? That thing looked like a galaxy to me. And go ahead and exclude it as a feat. Not that it matters to the PF.
How do you know he held their actuality in his hands and not just representations of them? Did the LT have Odin's soul in his hand when Odin died and an image of Odin appeared on the LT's palm?
Let's see the LT do it on panel. And the IG only functions in the universe the Gems are original too. So yes the IG can do it, but only to it's native universe.
LOL splitting hairs much? How is shattering it to the point where it was almost dead differ from slowly killing it? Both the stories can't be right. Either Galactus was killing it and the universe itself suffered or Xorn was killing it and nothing happened to the universe at large.
At least in the Galactus instance Death, Roma (the omniversal guardian), and the Watcher came and pleaded on Rachel's behalf. No one was begging Xorn not to "kill" the PF. So again, which is it, both can't be right. They are contradictory.
When has the IG even been used all out offensively against the Tribunal? According to you, it's only been used against his M-body in the Cosmic Trial and even then it wasn't a killing blow.
Then the gems stopped working in unison. That's the whole point. Why not just turn the gems off when Warlock got confrontational, if the resulting melee would have wrecked creation? Because he couldn't. He had to have the IG users permission to affect the Gems.
Jean has also survived a nova and then went on to devour the star. Check the Dark Phoenix storyline.
There's on panel evidence of the PF being the Big Bang. Richard's (supposedly the smartest man in Marvel) said so. The fact that he just brought it up out of the blue when they weren't even dealing with the PF should tell you something.
You still don't understand what that quote meant I see. His comment had nothing to do about life/planets/growing etc... They were discussing levels of power, that was the whole point of the trip he took Kosmos on. And on this trip he said "the first and in many ways the greatest of the principalites (ie the cosmic beings) was the stars (and we all know who powers those right?).
Who is to say? LT didnt do much better than Eternity and Jean had Eternity in her hand like a play thing. LT is beaten by Jean for feats, the Phoenix Force feat wise outclasses him significantly.
My point was you quite incorrectly made out as if LT forced Phoenix to listen to him and she had no choice. You were wrong. As i showed, the Phoenix of that reality chose to listen to LT, just for that day as stated on panel and only because her power threatens the multiverse when in mortal hands.
You dont need to add any theory which you cant back up with feats, you were wrong and thats that
Really, I wouldn' be surprised if you would say that PF has better feats or equal as THOTI.
It's not about misinterpretation. Everyone has a choice. But if it wouldn't listen LT, she wouldn't do well. So, it was better to listen, and since she is smart, she had no choice, but to listen, but not in the absolute sense. Eveyone has a choice, even human has a choice, if would listen LT or not.
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Last edited by Xplosive on Oct 21st, 2010 at 04:55 AM
It does loooool. That doesnt mean its greater. Thats my whole point here. Im not saying the Phoenix Force is the greatest, most supreme thing in Marvel. Im just saying that regardless of what low showings, fragments, avatars and hosts of the Phoenix Force have had, it has the top feats around.
If you were objective you'd be able to acknowledge that and say yes it does have better feats, but i believe LT is still the greater power despite his lack of feats. That would be fine, but no youre trying to debate with me and present that opinion as fact when you have no feats to back it up. Not good
Its all about misinterpretation. You made out that the Phoenix Force was shown as conclusively weaker than LT based on that scene. You made out that the Phoenix Force was ordered by LT not to take a human host. That wasnt the case, you misinterpreted or you remembered the scene incorrectly.
The comic states that the" two forces of nature" conversed and that LT asked the Phoenix not to take a human host. The comic then makes the explicit point that the Phoenix decided LT was right because her power is a threat to the multiverse. Its decision wasnt based on any fear of reprisal and you'd be wrong to claim that because we're told clear as day she feared what she was capable of. The comic went on to further support the point that Phoenix wasnt dominated or forced to do anything by stating that she would listen to him JUST for that day.
Just to reiterate, you misinterpreted or your recollection was poor.
As a last point, until you can provide scans of LT's m body doing feats as great as Jean Grey's, let alone the Phoenix Force, then you dont know how he would fare in battle with Jean. His role is to protect the multiverse as a whole so for all we know there could be a limit to the amount of power hes willing to employ in battle which would explain why:
a) he was only willing to blow up a sun as his "ultimate punishment" before retreating from Korvac and sealing him off:
b) Why he needed the other cosmics to help him destroy Galactus only to get atomised by Reed Richards invention:
He assaulted the court because to stop the trial. He may not have tried to kill them but he didn't feel they had authority to put him on trial. Hence why he said "how dare you seek to judge me". Either way, that blast still put Eternity on his knees. Don't try and belittle that feat because the IG has manipulated on a universal scale. Either way, IG>Eternity/universe.
Quasar was told that most of the abstracts use M-bodies to create a physical body. Then Quasar asked what about physical beings like Galactus and Stranger. The answer was that same times the physicals also use M-bodies to attend somewhere without making an appearance. It doesn't say that these beings we or were not using M-bodies at the time.
Celestials operating in the 616 use M-bodies. Those armors are a type of M-bodies. Galactus, Watcher, and Stranger can use M-bodies but I see no reason for them using M-bodies here. As for the abstracts, they always use M-bodies because they have no bodies to begin with.
It doesn't make much of a difference because most of what you see is their M-bodies and they channel there power through it. When characters reference how powerful a Celestial, it's referring to what they've encountered: the armor/M-bodies. That attack by Odin, Zeus, and Vishnu was on the armor/M-body of Arishem.
The Gauntlet gives you supremacy over all aspects of reality, over all these beings except LT. It's stated numerous times and hence why Eternity fears it.
See above. We don't know for sure about the trial regarding Galactus, Watcher, and Stranger. The others always operate using M-bodies. It doesn't change anything because that's how they've always shown up in comics.
And my point to you is that that was one of LT's lower showing. And he's got very few of those.
So when he attacked the court and sent the majority of them flying about that wasn't wtfpwning them? The judgement was that he wasn't fit to wield the Gauntlet. It had nothing to do with shutting it down. Even after he submit, the Gauntlet still worked.
What does Odin have to do with anything? We know that it wasn't really Odin because it flat out states it's merely the residual life force of Odin that everyone detected and it meant nothing to even the Tribunal.
Now where does it say representation in the book or that handbook excerpt regarding the brothers? It says right there by Dweller that he's the supreme entity in the multiverse. He holds two incalculably powerful siblings that are playing out the conflict of existence. BUT NOT JUST YET. First he must consult his Spectral hooded ally before PLAY CAN BEGIN. Those brothers could not proceed to play out existence until LT and Spectre agrees to it and all is aligned. You see Tribunal clench the brothers during that line. The following page says Alpha and Omega (beginning & end) revolve on a wheel spun by his hand, a HAND THAT WILL SOON OPEN UP TO ALLOW TWO BROTHERS TO ASSUME THEIR PRE-DESTINED ROLE AS ARCHITECTS OF NEW REALITIES. That was their actuality unless you have proof it isn't. In fact, this whole thing was meant to ret-con DC vs Marvel, proving that the Tribunal was actually more powerful than the two brothers.
You want to see the Tribunal destroy a timeline? The Tribunal has few appearances and you want to see him destroy a timeline. Please take this nonsense somewhere else because this is getting ridiculous. The Tribunal never shook the multiverse either so I guess Odin is more powerful?
No. What the heck are you talking about? If the IG only functions in it's universe of origin, how do you explain Magus with the IG in his universe, that is several dimensions away from the 616, pwning Galactus and playing with Nullification energies? The only time it didn't work properly was in a crossover into the DC universe. It worked properly in the Malibu universe though when Malibu was bought by Marvel.
Xorn killed Jean, not Phoenix. Jean's death shattered it. Galactus was killing Phoenix itself, not Rachel. And if you're mad, talk to the X-writters. That going crying to me.
No one is disputing the Phoenix's essentialness to the cosmos. But if you want to bring up that Korvac incident, I'll gladly bring up these instances where the Phoenix's host died or the Force itself getting manipulated by alien weaponry.
Go talk to the writers if you have a problem. But you're the one who brought up that Korvac incident to bring down LT's feats record. So don't whine when I do the same to the Phoenix Force.
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Last edited by WhiteWitchKing on Oct 22nd, 2010 at 03:03 AM
Not everyone uses M-Bodies. They have the option of using M-bodies so get that straight. Most abstracts and the Celestials use M-bodies. That's how you're able to see them in comics. There actions and feats come from those appearances. So when these beings get blasted about and trashed, it's a high end feat because you hardly ever see someone dominate them this way. Death or it's M-body if you want to call that ripped Walker's heart out with ease, a death god to an entire galaxies. When Kubik runs into that Celestial that he feared, that was an M-body. And we've seen Cube Beings warp 2D beings into 3D and blind Watchers with their powers. If you want to argue that, then why don't you argue that it was just LT's M-body there as well and not his actuality?
Lol. Maybe it's because he and Warlock already knew the outcome. Because it's quite evident that Warlock couldn't not harm or threaten the Tribunal to back down in any way. Why not turn off the gems? Because that's not the point. The whole point was passing judgement and giving Warlock a chance to give up the Gauntlet. He didn't just shut it off because they both knew the outcome of the fight. Warlock wasn't going to win and both knew he would give up the power instead of putting creation through that. Creation can be fixed, it's one universe. If they fought, it would be Warlock's doing, not LT who has was willing to fight. But again, why shut down that power when LT knows Warlock was going to give in?
And if it was about stopping the gems from working in unison, then why did Warlock assemble the gems in Infinity War and was shocked that the gems didn't work in unison? I mean if he gave permission than why get shocked? Why bother gathering the gems together to form the Gauntlet and stop a threat that was affecting two universes when he agreed to a degree that the gems no long function in unison? He didn't know that because that wasn't the judgement.
Yeah for it. So now you're pulling up a better depiction of the Phoenix. Well, LT simply materializes Shi'Ar weaponry aimed at the Force and kill it. So what happens when you bring in low end feats? I can do it too.
The doesn't mean it has total control over every other aspects of the universe. Hence why you see references to it being one of the primary forces of the universe and never the top force of the universe. It's even seen as an elemental. If Phoenix is the big bang, the shouldn't Entropy be it's equal? And we know Entropy if blown to pieces turns becomes a new Eternity. So then is Eternity not the Phoenix's equal? Then you have Death as well.
Reed Richards is supposedly the smartest man in Marvel comics but where does he say that the Force is some how more powerful than the other abstracts? As for Richards, he's not TOAA. Thanos became one with power of TOAA said LT was the top being in the MU. That big bang stuff is small potatoes compared to LT.
Kubik: The first level. The Stars! Plasmatic geodes of concentrated cosmic life force. (talking about stars). The SOURCE from which ALL OTHER LIFE springs. (talking about stars again. Space, time, mind, death, void, anomaly, chaos, and order for instance aren't life.) The First - and in many ways greatest - of the principalities. (still talking about stars). They are the MOST PRECIOUS of things. (one way it's greater than other principalities in the universe like death, time, space, etc. Life is precious! Ever heard of that? It's only said like a thousand times through this and other mediums) Despite their power, THEY ARE REMARKABLY FRAGILE. (still talking about stars). The well from which they draw their sustenance is subject to turbulence. Periodically, it ignites in the form of the chaos bringer predator of stars - the Dark Phoenix. And YET, the Dark Phoenix MERELY SERVES EVOLUTION ITSELF.
Kubik says stars are the sustenance of life, hence why it's in many ways the greatest of principalities. It's all talking about life. Life brings about other concepts such as love and hate. Life has the potential to grow, evolve, and thrive. It can create order and chaos. Stars also are the reason for the formation of planets for life to grew on and energy for it to develop. Hence why this source of power MERELY SERVES evolution. You missed where he moves on to call LT the most Supreme Being that can be comprehended who exist in and judge all multiverses. Then he refers to Eternity as the power that encompasses all others, the sum of which is all things in this universe. Phoenix is one of the great powers, not the great power. How you get that Phoenix is more powerful than LT and Eternity from that line about stars is mind boggling.
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Last edited by WhiteWitchKing on Oct 22nd, 2010 at 04:11 AM
Are you serious? Do you really think PF has a good feat as Thanos with THOTI? Seriously? Which one?
No, it's not. It's you attachment to the PF that makes you think that way.
You don't even know what I wanted to say.
PF had a choice like everyone has. It listened LT, because it knew, if it wouldn't, what you you think would happen? It knew if LT would interfene, it would be stopped. It was her choice to listen. If it wouldn't, it wouldn't fare well.
But you go around and complicate this ''where did it say and so on...'', it's logical PF listened, because LT said it. It was upon PF would it listen or not, but it did.
Of course, she isn't stupid to go in a battle agianst LT, where it has no chance.
And don't bring low feats of LT, Galactus would literally destroy PF out of existence, if not for other abstracts and that is even conifrmed in BIO.
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Last edited by Xplosive on Oct 22nd, 2010 at 06:18 AM
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Oct 19th, 2010 04:25 AM
