Could Luke and/or Leia have killed Emperor Sidious?
I think so. In TESB, Kenobi called Luke their only hope, and there was another hope (Leia), and, in ROTJ, Luke was called their only hope by Obi Wan because he had to kill Vader (and presumably, the Emperor, too, because with Anakin dead, who else could do it).
Luke Skywalker was the galaxy's only hope because he was a force user and he was the only person that could kill Darth Vader, and heavily implied, if not blatanly told to us, the Emperor too. A non force user is no match for a powerful Sith or Jedi in a fight. Therefore, only a force user could kill another force user (with some exceptions, such as the clonetroopers outnumbering the Jedi, but, Palpatine knew the rebel's tricks and he could easily escape the DS2).
Kenobi and Yoda knew that Luke was their only hope.
And, if Luke died or failed to complete his task to kill the two Sith Lords that ruled the galaxy, Leia would then have to fullfill his role, for, as anakin skywalker's daughter, she was a force user too.
With Anakin on the darkside, Luke's role was now to be the new "Chosen One", and Leia would do that if he failed. (a new hope is another word for the new Chosen One). Even wookipedia stated that yoda and kenobi depended on the twins to fullfill the prophecy
Now, things didn't go quite as planned, actually Anakin fullfilled the prophecy in the end by destroying the two sith lords (himself and sidious).
Now, suppose, here's the question. Could Luke Skywalker have done it directly, by killing the Emperor too (and not just Vader, he could kill Vader possibly, he almost did) and saving the galaxy from them? Or, even more interesting, could Leia have killed the Emperor? Or even Vader, for that matter?
I think yes. I think that if Anakin never turned away from the darkside in the original trilogy, it's very possible that Luke or Leia could have killed the Emperor, unlike Kenobi or Yoda.
Luke could force jump to dodge the Emperor's sith lightning, and then kill him with his lightsaber.
But here's the problem. How would you even compare/measure how two force users would fight against each other?
Mace Windu could only win his duel against Sidious because he used Vaapad.
What force powers did Leia have to fight the Emperor with? Could she dodge his attacks? If Luke died, Leia didn't have a freaking lightsaber to fight Palpatine with? And he would just use the Force against her. We're talking about straight up fights, not Vader sneakily killing the Emperor when he's vulrenable.
I'm not that familar with force powers, so describing a duel with force users of different powers isn't exactly too easy for me.
But Darth Vader in the OT couldn't have killed Sidious in a straight up fight (that's why he needed Luke to kill the Emperor so that they could rule the galaxy as father and son), Sidious had force lightning that would damage his suit, and with that heavy weight of a suit, Anakin couldn't run and dodge the Emperor's attacks.
If Vader needed Luke to kill Sidious for him, that means totally that Luke could have killed Palpatine in a straight up fight. If you disagree with my evidence, please explain why. Speculation for all!
But Leia is a totally different story, without a lightsaber or force training.
No. As evident by what Sidious told moff jerjerrod, he knew what was going on in Endor with the shield generator, and he could tell jerjerrod when he sensed that the shield generator was destroyed. If the generator was destroyed, Sidious would have hopped onto his shuttle and escaped the DS2.
So, Luke could drag slowly 200+ pounds of his dying father, just sit there for 2 minutes (i'm talking about his chat with the unmasked vader), and then somehow just manage to escape in time, but Sidious couldn't just quickly run and get onto his shuttle and escape? That makes no sense at all.
Not to mention Luke being the only hope for the alliance. If Luke wasn't there, then Anakin (the chosen one) wouldnt kill Sidious, and then both the Emperor and his 2nd in command would live the battle and the empire wouldn't fall into chaos with the deaths of their two leaders and the rebels would lose the war.
Now, if Palpatine was going to die when the death star blew up anyways, with or without Luke or Anakin being there, then what was the point of Luke being the galaxy's only hope?
If Luke killed Vader and turned to the darkside, by being consumed by his own anger, then Luke and Sidious had the perfect time to escape, as the 4-5 minutes of force lightning and torture and chatting with the dying Anakin never would have happened. They had the perfect amount of time to escape.
I think Sidious could have won the war with the rebels had Luke turned to the darkside or if Luke was never even there in the first place.
He could have used battle meditation to focus his troops to make them better fighters against the rebel forces, or he could have created force storms against the rebels.
Or, more likely and most likely less EU fanon, Luke/sidious could have used the force to detect and stop lando and/or wedge from blowing up the death star.
Luke was their only hope because he was a distraction to Sidious, he prevented Sidious and Vader from escaping the ds2 (idk what would have happened if the redeemed anakin survived the battle of endor)
Usually, during a battle, the death of the enemy leaders can send the soldiers into chaos.
Now, an enemy leader (s) dying in a war usually doesn't make that big of a difference, but it's a very big contributing factor. If winning a war simply depended on taking out the enemy's leaders, then we could have won the american revolution or defeated the nazis without these big catastraphoic wars.
On the other hand, especially/mainly when a specific side of a war is getting a lot of victories, the death of the enemy leaders can send the enemy forces into chaos a lot.
With star wars, this was a combination of Vader, Palpatine, and the moffs all dying at the ending battle, alongside the rebels winning
Palpatine's death in and of itself, by itself, did not help the rebels win the war, but it was a very nessecary contributing factor to the rebels winning the war.
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Other than 'holding him there' being rather crap heroism, all Palpatine would have got for escaping is captivity, seeing as the film is apparently pretty clear that the Imperials lost that battle.
All the rest about some mystic way in which the Emperor could have won the battle for the Imperials is really just airy speculation which is a. not really supported in film ('use the Force' to stop Lando and co is basically meaningless as a straight statement, likely part of an EU-influenced habit of massively overstating the power of Force users) and b. irrelevant; it is the film's job to show us the stakes and in this case it did not. There is absolutely no connection made on-screen between Luke/Anakin's actions and victory; it just becomes a personal thing for them. The Rebels win through direct military means.
The mistake is due to ROTJ's troubled development process. Luke's original showdown with Palpatine was on the Imperial homeworld and separate from the military action. When they unified the plotlines, they never accounted for making Luke's quest mostly irrelevant.
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Last edited by Ushgarak on Mar 4th, 2013 at 09:44 AM
I figured Luke was more a tool of fate or destiny. Anakin was supposed to be this chosen one from this prophecy who would save the galaxy from some great evil.. But as it played out he also had a hand in establishing that evils power in the first place. So for the prophecy to be fulfilled his life lead him down a path where he put the evil in power then threw his son found it within himself to kill the emperor and bring an end to his evil.
Luke being the only hope of the universe or last hope was from the perspective of people with little to no hope of beating the empire. From the perspective of the audience watching all six films Luke being a plot device rather than the great hero seems more likely.
So if they challenged the emperor with their limited knowledge and training they would most likely die.lighting shooting out of a seemingly beat up old man's hands is enough of a trump card/surprise attack to kill Luke or Leia right out the gate. If not we need to look to Sidious's only other show of battle skill. His battle with yoda. With that as all we can work off of Luke obviously doesn't have a chance. The emperor seemed to have great sensing ability so I doubt Leia could sneak up on him and beyond that and a few pew pew shots she has nothing to bring to this.
Aside from force lightning(of which Luke was evidently clueless about), even if RotJ Palpatine merely retained an insignificant micro-fraction of the skill/speed he displayed in his battle with Mace during RotS, he would have been able to effortlessly trounce RotJ Luke as though he were a talentless feeb.
For all his hype, during RotJ Luke looked like a blind kid trying to hit a pinata with a stick when he fought Vader... A far cry from those who were dubbed "Jedi" back in his father's heyday.
"Stopped they must be. On this all depends. Only a fully trained Jedi Knight with the Force as his ally will conquer Vader and his Emperor. If you end your > training now, if you choose the quick and easy path as Vader did, you will become an agent of evil."
Luke never conquered the Emperor, and the childlike 'saber skills' he displayed against Vader were atrocious-- he was nowhere near Clone Wars-era Jedi in terms of saber prowess. Imho.
Luke's spastic flailing was far too much for Vader at least apparently.
I guess it just means his aggression and speed was more than sufficient to overcome any calculated skill advantage Vader had him?
'Obi Wan has taught you well', Vader said.
I wouldn't get too caught up in trying to compare choreography across generations, skill is based on the narrative. Though even then, its clear that beserker rage, as Luke was displaying there, can overcome decades of experience in advantage.
Mar 2nd, 2013 05:55 PM
