He is without beginning or end of days (that’s why He calls Himself the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last).
God would have to be eternal (i.e. exist outside of time) in order to be time’s Creator.
Only an all-powerful, all-wise God (i.e. Creator, First Cause)--Who is not subject to the law of time--could account for the wisdom, intelligence, orderly arrangement, laws of nature, life, and other phenomenal finds that exist in the universe, and specifically on the planet we inhabit.
No other explanation is logical.
No other account makes sense.
Just because God defies logic to our natural minds does not mean that His existence is illogical.
The only reason why atheists struggle with God is because they have been conditioned to believe that all things have a beginning, and are somehow subject to the law of time.
But God is eternal.
Hence, God is not at the mercy of the law of time as you and I are in this natural realm.
God lives in a realm not subject to the law of time: the spirit realm.
In the spirit realm the laws that govern matter, energy, and space in this natural realm do not hold sway.
They are superseded by higher laws: the law of love, the law of faith, and the law of light.
The spirit realm is a whole new plane of existence or dimension.
I would to God that you would give your life to Jesus Christ (the Creator) so that you could spend eternity discovering and learning all of the wonders of that realm of existence with your God, who loves you and gave Himself for you.
It is truly a marvelous realm.
You say the Bible was written by man.
I hope that is not the number one obstacle holding you back from confessing Jesus Christ as Lord.
The Bible is God’s Book.
Just because a book is published by a publishing team does not negate the words of the author.
Sorry, but you do not have any evidence on how the universe came to be.
Riddle me this: can your evidence be proven using the scientific method? If not, then it is not empirically sound, and thus invalid.
The evidence for the existence of an all-powerful, all-wise Creator is the very air you breath down to the magnificent cells that constitute your brain.
We are all made in the image and likeness of God.
Just like God we can think, ponder, reason, laugh, cry, create, invent, deliberate, judge, show compassion, love, mercy, concern, anger, wrath, intelligence, faith, see, hear, speak, etc.
These traits or emotions came from somewhere.
I believe they came from God.
The reason you cannot see this is because the god of this age (satan) has blinded your mind lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ should shine on you.
I was just like you until the blindness was removed and my spiritual eyes were opened.
Now, I can clearly see God’s handiwork.
From the fine-tuning of the universe to the beauty of a rose.
From the birth of an innocent newborn to the orderly arrangement of the stars.
From the intricacy of the tiniest cell to the immensity of the ocean that covers this planet.
From man-made laws to the more complex laws of nature.
It’s okay, one day you will see that God was right about everything all along.
God's method for proving His existence can be found in the things that He has made.
Romans 1:20
Amplified Bible (AMP)
20 For ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature and attributes, that is, His eternal power and divinity, have been made intelligible and clearly discernible in and through the things that have been made (His handiworks).
So [men] are without excuse [altogether without any defense or justification],
It is abundantly clear that this is not sufficient proof for you. But that's an issue that you must come to terms with.
Nonetheless, what do you expect me to do at this point?
You asked for proof, the proof is all around you, yet you choose not to accept it.
Moreover, God is a Spirit.
Spirits occupy another (higher, primordial) dimension.
It is not possible for me to provide proof of God (other than by the manner which He has prescribed in His Word i.e. the works of His hands) when He is in another realm.
Nevertheless, God's signature as it were—like the trademark of a an upscale designer—appears on His product i.e. living things, DNA, photosynthesis, the finely-tuned universe, and the intelligently rigid laws that govern them, and the supernatural wisdom with which they operate.
None of the laws of humanity, their inventions, and other non-living things came into being without a creator.
It's interesting to me how anyone can understand this logic without any elucidation.
However, when it comes to language, the human brain, and the other products of God’s creative wisdom (mentioned above i.e. God’s signature), and great power, the atheist requires an inordinate amount of proof to believe that those things required a Creator.
This is a double standard. The zenith of foolishness (let that sink in).
It's an apples to International Space Station comparison, yet the consensus among atheists is that no Creator is required for exceedingly more complex phenomenon, but there must of necessity be a creator for a watch, a shoe, or a bracelet.
Why is that?
We are talking about life (this alone should end all discussion), DNA, photosynthesis, a finely –tuned universe with precise parameters and laws that enable it to function to support life, complex eukaryotic cells, language, and the human brain to name some—yet the atheist cries, “no divine Creator for those amazingly phenomenal things”.
Something is wrong with atheistic logic and reason. It is self-contradictory. Perhaps even in denial.
I leave you with yet another fact as I still await one from you:
THERE ARE INTERSECTING PERPENDICULAR LINES IN NATURE!!! GOD IS REAL!!!
__________________ "Your Lord knows very well what is in your heart. Your soul suffices this day as a reckoner against you. I need no witnesses. You do not listen to your soul, but listen instead to your anger and your rage."
God's method for proving His existence can be found in the things that He has made.
Romans 1:20
Amplified Bible (AMP)
20 For ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature and attributes, that is, His eternal power and divinity, have been made intelligible and clearly discernible in and through the things that have been made (His handiworks).
So [men] are without excuse [altogether without any defense or justification],
It is abundantly clear that this is not sufficient proof for you. But that's an issue that you must come to terms with.
Nonetheless, what do you expect me to do at this point?
You asked for proof, the proof is all around you, yet you choose not to accept it.
Moreover, God is a Spirit.
Spirits occupy another (higher, primordial) dimension.
It is not possible for me to provide proof of God (other than by the manner which He has prescribed in His Word i.e. the works of His hands) when He is in another realm.
Nevertheless, God's signature as it were—like the trademark of a an upscale designer—appears on His product i.e. living things, DNA, photosynthesis, the finely-tuned universe, and the intelligently rigid laws that govern them, and the supernatural wisdom with which they operate.
None of the laws of humanity, their inventions, and other non-living things came into being without a creator.
It's interesting to me how anyone can understand this logic without any elucidation.
However, when it comes to language, the human brain, and the other products of God’s creative wisdom (mentioned above i.e. God’s signature), and great power, the atheist requires an inordinate amount of proof to believe that those things required a Creator.
This is a double standard. The zenith of foolishness (let that sink in).
It's an apples to International Space Station comparison, yet the consensus among atheists is that no Creator is required for exceedingly more complex phenomenon, but there must of necessity be a creator for a watch, a shoe, or a bracelet.
Why is that?
We are talking about life (this alone should end all discussion), DNA, photosynthesis, a finely –tuned universe with precise parameters and laws that enable it to function to support life, complex eukaryotic cells, language, and the human brain to name some—yet the atheist cries, “no divine Creator for those amazingly phenomenal things”.
Something is wrong with atheistic logic and reason. It is self-contradictory. Perhaps even in denial.
I leave you with yet another fact as I still await one from you:
__________________ "Your Lord knows very well what is in your heart. Your soul suffices this day as a reckoner against you. I need no witnesses. You do not listen to your soul, but listen instead to your anger and your rage."
I've come to terms with it. I have no problem with it. I think the bigger issue is that you still think it counts as valid evidence.
That's an appeal to emotion, not anything logical.
These are more of the unfounded claims I talked about. God is a spirit...because...???
He occupies another dimension. Which you know about because...???
You're talking about causality, physics, evolution, etc. None need God to operate. At best you have a God that created the universe and never influenced ever again. But yours is a god that is VERY active in human affairs. Surely you'd be able to point to his influence in a way that defies basic causality, yeah?
Supposition. Maybe the creation point was something else entirely. God is just one theory, one lacking evidence.
Zenith of foolishness. Nice phrase; seriously. I'm going to remember that one and use it sometime.
Here we see that you don't actually understand atheism. Being able to truly understand another perspective is a skill not all have. But in guessing at atheist motivations, intentions, and rationale, besides unfairly generalizing a group of people whose approaches to religion are incredibly varied, you're also super-imposing your own prejudices onto them. That is the perhaps the worst flaw in your argument here...that it takes the internal marginalization of a group, falsely attributed with bogus intentions, to justify their existence to yourself.
Personally, I'd be fine with the idea of a God (not the Christian one, mind you...he's too hateful and arbitrary with his rules). But it's not denial of the concept. It's that I don't see valid reason to believe. If I'm ever presented with a good enough argument, or good enough evidence, I'd be fine with softening my stance a bit.
Everything else you've written has been a variation on the Watchmaker argument. If you want further refutation, go read the links I posted in the Atheism thread. You and I have come to an impasse.
Otherwise, decent talk. I agree with absolutely nothing you've said, but this was better than the link and video spam you normally resort to.
Gender: Male Location: between apathy and indifference
Truth and religion cannot coexist on the same plane.
Truth is a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the like (ie, mathematical truths).
Religion is a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects (ie, Christianity, Hinduism, etc).
Religion is based upon belief and faith.
Belief is confidence in the existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof and faith is belief that is not based on proof.
By continuing your internet/forum crusade in an effort to "prove" the "truth" about your chosen religion, you are actually dismissing the required faith that is elemental to the adherence of the Christian doctrine.
In other words, it seems that you are trying to prove your religion more for your benefit than for the benefit of anyone else. And that is just sad.
“For those who believe in God, most of the big questions are answered. But for those of us who can't readily accept the God formula, the big answers don't remain stone-written. We adjust to new conditions and discoveries. We are pliable. Love need not be a command nor faith a dictum. I am my own god. We are here to unlearn the teachings of the church, state, and our educational system. We are here to drink beer. We are here to kill war. We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that Death will tremble to take us.”
¯ Charles Bukowski
__________________ "I made a typo bif deal" - JacopeX
Personally, I reckon JesusIsAlive is having a joke on this forum. That's my guess anyway.
"Religion is based upon belief and faith." That's my belief anyway
There is a Church named Hillsong in Australia and they're expanding worldwide. Singing and band stuff but about 6 years I speaking to this guy whom was a street spokesman outside this Hospital in Sydney.
Anyway, I'll try to cut a long story short. He was addicted to drugs and booze and such and this church have a helping hand (that's all well and good) but the sad conclusion I believe, he said and I quote "I give 20% of my salary to the church". He did the spokesman sh*t on his off time...that wasn't his 9-5 job.
Doesn't scientology do something of that nature?
In a Catholic/Church Of English/Methodist/Baptist you can put money in a basket, but you don't have too. That's a big difference.
Get ready for Hillsong, it's coming near you Jesus Christ!!!!!
KMC Community Forums
Aug 15th, 2013 04:00 AM
